00:00:04:22 - 00:00:53:05 Speaker 1 A capella as capella space. They are now into their third generation system and they have currently they have nine satellites in space. Not sure what their plans are in terms of doing the and so does anybody know. Okay. Umbra lab which is sort of the one that's been really gotten in fact got on the fast track and I looked it up. 00:00:53:05 - 00:01:42:13 Speaker 1 They have six satellites now, super high resolution. Something like 50 centimeter. 25. Excuse me. Wow. That's impressive. So I heard something about trade in space, but I don't think they've been in. Does anybody know anything about trade in space? Okay. Since back to. I know they have what? Two, I think not. No. Don't know much about it. I think express arm might be gone. 00:01:42:13 - 00:01:51:18 Speaker 1 IQ Piers I don't know much about it. 00:01:54:11 - 00:02:35:13 Speaker 1 Oh, I think I want to know one of these. I want to see one of these companies trade in space or somebody got together with with a CubeSat company. So they're going to launch their own. Sorry, I just don't remember which which one of these. Anyway, in Florida. Okay. So what are your thoughts about commercial SA satellites for STV? 00:02:37:04 - 00:02:55:01 Speaker 1 Is it viable, targeted observation? Oh, thank you, Rob. 00:02:59:01 - 00:03:21:03 Speaker 2 I will just start with the maybe personal opinion, maybe some, maybe different from others. But if we want interferometry currently, I don't think there's possibilities. The current ones. I don't know about the future, but I know Cosmos came in I guess for it. 00:03:21:16 - 00:04:10:22 Speaker 3 Oh that's, that's so my private I think. But I without focusing necessarily through to the phase measurements that are big, there are some sensors such as the Umbra that because they have they can reach 25 centimeters. Then you have a lot of squint and in between you know the spotlight acquisition that you that they they they make so they in effect effectively I've seen some rather dramatic DMS from umbra space from Mumbai images and they had like metric uh, I think 2 to 2 and five meters DM sits over a patch of four by four kilometers. 00:04:11:16 - 00:04:53:13 Speaker 3 And I think the problem is that we don't know what's the accuracy of those. And so one of one of the tasks could be to actually figure out how accurate these DMS are, because as we were listening yesterday to stakeholders and, you know, implication leads, so I heard them a lot. And in private conversations during this meeting, they would like to have a global product that has a certain resolution and then they would like to have a rapid response when there is an event that has to be way more accurate, both in terms of, you know, vertical accuracy, but also in terms of spatial resolution. 00:04:54:13 - 00:05:25:01 Speaker 3 And so I think I don't know if they're going to continue doing this very premature mission, but I don't know if they will achieve the orbit orbital tubes, stability to perform interferometry. We have some example from both Umbra and Capella. They already have done by, I think Interferometer by static positions, not interference by just just amplitude. And so I think there is a potential there, but it's not going to go global. 00:05:25:01 - 00:05:40:08 Speaker 3 And so maybe once we assess it in terms of coverage, those variables that are characterized by local coverage and short data latency, those could be covered by the commercial constellations. 00:05:41:08 - 00:05:48:05 Speaker 1 Focused on low h for. 00:05:50:09 - 00:06:03:03 Speaker 3 And you know, disaster mitigation, which is the topic of, you know, the application section. Anyone else? 00:06:07:16 - 00:06:35:22 Speaker 4 So even though I'm just a bureaucrat, I want to share an experience I had with Capella. So we did an experiment a couple of years ago and it was a disaster. The purpose of the experiment was to improve a flood forecasting model that was coming out of Goddard Space Flight Center. And we wanted to get real time measurements of the inundation of the flooding that occurred. 00:06:36:10 - 00:07:15:02 Speaker 4 And so we used Capella, the model, we did a model directed observation from Capella. So we we took a 72 hour forecast from the European Center and where we felt there was going to be where indicated atmospheric river over a burn scar. That was the the scenario that we we chose where the model was performing poorly. We had the Capella API and we tasked the spacecraft to target specific areas where we thought the the the flooding would occur. 00:07:15:13 - 00:07:45:12 Speaker 4 So 72 hours in advance, we used the European Center forecast to predict the the targets to give us the targets. And it worked really well in terms of getting the imagery. Now, I can't speak to the accuracy of the imagery, but it was useful in terms of understanding why the model was not performing well in that area. So the images were about, I think, $10,000 we spent on. 00:07:45:23 - 00:08:12:23 Speaker 4 So they charge you per image. The tasking is based on the available 80 of the spacecraft that's got all the you know, it knows exactly where the spacecraft there the constellation will be and what the capabilities are. There are other customers that are more important. So they could bump you off. But in terms of of doing adaptive targeting, it worked really well. 00:08:13:08 - 00:08:15:21 Speaker 4 So just some experience there. 00:08:16:23 - 00:08:17:12 Speaker 1 That's good to. 00:08:17:12 - 00:08:58:02 Speaker 3 Know. Yeah. And another comment is NASA's funding some on ramp evaluation studies and actually right now and the outcome of that is that can we use this for doing science? And there is a list of scientific applications that I've been going to tested in, for example. Well, next year we will have the the number one. But I think the the point here is also my opinion is that it's a it's good to assess the accuracy of the products, but also to run some ices based on private constellations because, you know, let's put let's put it this way. 00:08:58:02 - 00:09:39:21 Speaker 3 If I need a digital terrain model for after an earthquake, how fast? You know, we know we have, you know, post seismic displacement right after an earthquake. So how fast the constellation could generate EDM and that that you know that would require some of these analysis that is a function of the number of satellites would would understand what is the sampling the shorter the peak time and the latency today is pretty good like I task an image with the by this morning you already got acquired in a couple of hours he says it's in downloads so I'd say they're getting they're getting pretty pretty fast with that. 00:09:41:06 - 00:09:42:20 Speaker 3 Do you. Okay. Yeah. 00:09:43:20 - 00:09:46:08 Speaker 1 Let's get move. 00:09:50:21 - 00:09:53:15 Speaker 1 Okay. How big is your image? 00:09:54:14 - 00:10:17:16 Speaker 3 So it depends. And satellites are four by four kilometers. I see. I may be a little bit bigger by, let's say, the upper threshold for a spot. Imaging is ten by ten kilometers from Cosmos came. And all the companies because it provides a frame that is smaller than that. So less than ten by ten. 00:10:21:24 - 00:11:12:18 Speaker 1 Oh, awesome. So anything else I must say about this before we move on? What other things can we maybe we can go back and after we think about some of these needs, we can come back and revisit the commercial and governments, our satellites, and see if see if there are some actions that we can take recommendations like thank you. 00:11:12:21 - 00:11:54:09 Speaker 1 All right, so where are we? So radar technology, emerging capabilities, just tracking who are your. 00:11:58:17 - 00:12:37:08 Speaker 1 All right. So we have I know we have told us are there there are a lot of Thomas related activities going on. There is that Thomas are what do you call architecture optimization. Right. Erik, you're working on it, right? 00:12:37:19 - 00:12:38:03 Speaker 5 Yeah. 00:12:39:22 - 00:12:44:13 Speaker 1 So you can you speak a little bit about what you are doing. 00:12:46:22 - 00:13:40:09 Speaker 5 So we're developing simulation tools to look at different components of the system engineering for Thomas Ah and the SDC as well. So I guess that involves different components of the air sources such as positioning air as well as oscillator phase air from the synchronization component for multiple platforms as well as some of the more fundamental physics stuff, such as the bi static scattering models for the surface. 00:13:40:09 - 00:13:53:08 Speaker 1 So yes, on the second I'm sorry. 00:13:53:08 - 00:14:04:18 Speaker 5 Hi. We are also working on the most static timing and ambiguity analysis which is unique, which is uniquely different than monastery radar. 00:14:04:18 - 00:14:09:12 Speaker 1 So basically system study, I would call the solar system study, right. 00:14:10:15 - 00:14:10:23 Speaker 5 Right. 00:14:11:08 - 00:14:13:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So then we have. 00:14:17:21 - 00:14:22:11 Speaker 5 Since we. 00:14:24:19 - 00:14:33:24 Speaker 1 Rob you, you had something to say, put you on the spot. 00:14:33:24 - 00:14:47:03 Speaker 5 My comment was going to be that I think the airborne has been demonstrated or certainly there's a number of people working on it for Airborne for the Multi Pass there starts. 00:14:47:13 - 00:14:47:24 Speaker 1 Right. 00:14:48:08 - 00:14:53:16 Speaker 5 But even you have saw some of the work there. 00:14:54:01 - 00:15:06:00 Speaker 1 Are so far most are demo mode for them now processing algorithms. 00:15:09:06 - 00:15:38:13 Speaker 5 And so for airborne I think that that is high TRL and and available now I think the multi static airborne is still being developed. That's where darts I think was really focused in some of the flux. These are work that you had talked about. I think from space. I'm not aware out of any any demonstrations for or either are a few paths or a single pass Thomas are but certainly the sensors there. 00:15:40:05 - 00:15:40:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:15:40:16 - 00:15:50:22 Speaker 5 So you're so. 00:15:54:11 - 00:16:23:21 Speaker 4 I think we might have to wait till biomass gets launched in early 2025 the first 18 months. First phase of the mission is Thomas sorry from a space. 00:16:23:21 - 00:16:51:00 Speaker 1 Can you elaborate a little bit about how what their plans are as far as and you say demonstrating so obviously it's repeat pass right and then they're changing or and what are they hoping to what are their ground meters like? Are they hoping to get to the meter vertical accuracy by meter? 00:16:52:16 - 00:17:23:22 Speaker 4 Well, it it is supposed to be less than five meter and within two or three meter vertical accuracy. But remember, this is much coarser resolution data. They have six megahertz band bit. So the single look data is close to 50 meter and the products are going to be generated at 200 to 250 meter resolutions globally or across the tropics. 00:17:24:04 - 00:17:56:10 Speaker 4 So that's one item crispy band so you don't have a lot of test has been done with the airborne data set they do not get temporal correlation for more than two close to 20 to 25 days. Very small effect on that. So DLR did a lot of experiments and and the French team also did a lot of experiments to show that. 00:17:57:05 - 00:18:38:04 Speaker 4 So based on that, they've developed an orbital design, which the platform constantly jumps up and down and moves to really create all these baselines across. So it doesn't have any good quality repeat cycle. It takes them almost 10 to 11 months to cover the whole globe and develop that set up baselines. They need to create the total grams so you don't have repeat cycle in that sense. 00:18:39:01 - 00:19:06:18 Speaker 4 And so for that originally was supposed to be a year of Thomas saw mode, but it's extended for a longer period to create much denser set up baseline to improve the vertical accuracy. And then the mission would go to just pure pull in SA approach and then would have more repeat cycle. 00:19:07:11 - 00:19:14:05 Speaker 1 So is this right? Designed special baselines to generate almost observation in 18 months global right. 00:19:14:10 - 00:19:24:00 Speaker 4 Well yeah to basically right now I think it's 18 months for globally. 00:19:24:22 - 00:19:25:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:19:25:09 - 00:19:48:21 Speaker 4 Which means yeah we do not have permission to propagate in U.S. North America and a part of Europe. So it's going to be, you know, north east of Asia and across all tropics. 00:19:49:11 - 00:19:57:07 Speaker 1 Okay, sure. Whatever. 00:19:59:08 - 00:20:07:12 Speaker 1 I'm not I'm not censoring anybody's or whatever you want me to add. I'm going to capture. You can use this one. Yeah. 00:20:08:10 - 00:21:01:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I, I think that we still need to assess the potential of what? Because it has been launched and we don't know how, how we're performing. I think it will provide products at coastal the end up to a certain extent also there is yeah. Yes. E call and one of those might be a radar mission. So we don't know what's going to happen with that to so I consider emerging something that can be in orbit and we haven't looked at the data yet or it can be in development, right? 00:21:01:10 - 00:21:07:21 Speaker 1 A potential yes. E mission could be a radar mission that could contribute to US TV. 00:21:08:13 - 00:21:29:00 Speaker 3 It could be like signals of opportunity missions. I would put it separate then the future. I know a GPIO I suppose was working on that. 00:21:29:00 - 00:21:47:21 Speaker 1 It's not a radar, it's a passive. Well, as signals of opportunity is like a separate thing. And then there's the radar mission and polar in the trig range. Our concept. 00:21:49:08 - 00:21:49:21 Speaker 5 Was. 00:21:55:07 - 00:22:07:09 Speaker 1 Those are the two that I know. I don't know if there are other. Okay, feel good. 00:22:07:09 - 00:22:40:19 Speaker 5 So I think for most our electronic beam scanning capability is very important because it helps with like advanced armaments. You can advance timers such as sweeps are rechargeable is high resolution, white spot scans are etc. so you can increase slot weight and improve as much resolution at the same time. That's what Roselle is planning to do. Table H RW is. 00:22:40:23 - 00:22:44:09 Speaker 1 Okay, hold that thought. I think that belongs to a different section. 00:22:44:19 - 00:22:45:05 Speaker 5 Oh, is it? 00:22:46:04 - 00:22:49:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Because we're going to ask, well, what are the gaps? Right. 00:22:51:02 - 00:22:51:11 Speaker 5 Okay. 00:22:52:17 - 00:23:43:06 Speaker 1 Hold that thought. It's coming up. Thank you. Anything else in the emerging capabilities I was going to are there any electronics developments? And so I guess I'm going to talk in a s.p.a. by everybody. But temporal. 00:23:43:15 - 00:23:45:04 Speaker 5 Yeah. Is that now? 00:23:47:10 - 00:24:03:03 Speaker 1 Yes, but yes. 00:24:03:03 - 00:24:11:01 Speaker 5 So the commercial, the longer we're going to build which capabilities that are starting out over the next three years. 00:24:11:19 - 00:24:55:05 Speaker 1 So I'm not sure about Spaceborne, you know, other than what's going on. So there is a company, a space boring company called Array Labs or something. They are claiming that they're going to build these CubeSats or whatever small radars that does multi square multi-directional imaging. They just formed the company in Palo Alto and they're just hiring like three dozen radar engineers last two weeks ago. 00:24:55:12 - 00:25:40:01 Speaker 1 So I think it will be a little while before we hear more about it. So for Airborne, you know, there's there's one mature company into map. They're constantly upgrading their radar or capabilities, although I'm not sure if, you know, they might be somebody, a company that can fill a niche. So maybe we can see them with our desirement sending, you know, they can with funding they could develop some capabilities that we need for airborne. 00:25:41:07 - 00:26:40:02 Speaker 1 And then there is gamma remote sensing. They build they're building ground based car cars are alabang car SA which I know they're well I, I got an email from a Dickson what's his first name. Peter Dickson. Somebody. Jim Dickson. Thank you. Tim Dickson saying that they have a contract with Gamma remote sensing to build a drone based Elba in SA that's seven kilograms and it's going to fly on the quadcopter so it's, they're supposed to receive the radar early next year and then do some flight demo in May timeframe. 00:26:40:17 - 00:27:16:21 Speaker 1 So I think they are probably the most capable commercial company that I'm aware of that builds solid SAR instruments that can collect experimental data, good enough for data analysis, for research, not so much for operations. But anyway, that's something I heard. So, oh, there's another company. But a lot of these there's a company in Utah that builds airborne SAR. 00:27:16:21 - 00:28:01:04 Speaker 1 But again, these people, I'm not sure, maybe they're working exclusively with the body. So I don't hear much about what happens to the radar they build. And you just kind of you hear some things, oh, they build a radar and then it's disappeared. So, oh, there's motor sensing in the Netherlands. So yeah, they on paper, they seem to be doing a lot of things, but, you know, if you're talking about emerging capability, they definitely qualify in that area. 00:28:01:23 - 00:28:14:14 Speaker 1 I think they have some reliability issues in in delivering. 00:28:14:14 - 00:28:17:16 Speaker 5 So on I. 00:28:18:08 - 00:28:22:15 Speaker 1 Yes, I am sorry you've heard about that company, right? Not sure. 00:28:22:22 - 00:28:23:01 Speaker 5 I'm. 00:28:23:10 - 00:29:02:07 Speaker 1 Right. I think they work with the EOD, so I'm just going to put some company names here just so we can follow up and find out what they're doing in terms. Okay. Any other thoughts. 00:29:10:23 - 00:29:13:14 Speaker 5 So far from this? 00:29:17:01 - 00:29:24:09 Speaker 1 They're here. They got a double wide line. 00:29:24:24 - 00:29:25:04 Speaker 5 And. 00:29:28:16 - 00:30:18:18 Speaker 1 Okay, so oh, then there's OSI. I forgot to mention OSI. I guess that would be maybe here. How about data fusion? We haven't done anything. Okay, well, I take that back. So on your proposal has some data fusion type simulation. Okay, here's where I need health science, discipline, technology, the address map to measurement needs. Richard, did you find the table? 00:30:18:18 - 00:30:23:13 Speaker 1 Thank you. Really appreciate it. 00:30:23:13 - 00:30:24:01 Speaker 5 Oh. 00:30:27:21 - 00:30:41:19 Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Whoops. Maybe I need to do it. 00:30:41:19 - 00:31:26:03 Speaker 5 It's much. 00:31:26:03 - 00:31:45:04 Speaker 1 So here are some of the things we identified. Surface topography, deformation, vegetation. 00:31:45:04 - 00:31:50:07 Speaker 5 Mm. 00:31:50:07 - 00:31:51:07 Speaker 1 Okay, so. 00:31:54:14 - 00:31:55:03 Speaker 5 Observe. 00:31:55:14 - 00:32:11:09 Speaker 2 Yes. So does it work for bathymetry? So I'm not sure what shallow surface hydrology means, but I. Geologist. Yes. What about the image visible. 00:32:11:16 - 00:32:17:10 Speaker 5 Maybe even the size of the. Yeah, that's the elevation. 00:32:19:08 - 00:32:24:18 Speaker 1 Well it says tough. The only other way might be green light are in Clearwater. 00:32:24:18 - 00:32:25:00 Speaker 5 Yeah. 00:32:26:01 - 00:32:27:06 Speaker 1 I'll just make a note. 00:32:27:24 - 00:32:36:21 Speaker 2 Well, you know, Kathleen's there, so if we consider interference, then we can use wave pattern to do shallow. 00:32:36:21 - 00:32:37:05 Speaker 5 But then. 00:32:38:09 - 00:32:45:00 Speaker 1 We. We've done plan form. That's imagery, you know, where we just can tell where the channel know. 00:32:45:11 - 00:32:47:02 Speaker 5 Yeah. We've not been able to work with. 00:32:47:03 - 00:32:56:16 Speaker 1 You them say that again. What we can get plan to answer the the outline of. 00:32:56:16 - 00:32:57:21 Speaker 5 Where the shoreline. 00:33:00:23 - 00:33:06:24 Speaker 1 Landform bathymetry. Yes like that so then for the cemetery but. 00:33:06:24 - 00:33:08:11 Speaker 5 Not not. 00:33:08:14 - 00:33:12:11 Speaker 1 That's not okay except in very. 00:33:13:01 - 00:33:14:21 Speaker 5 Specific circumstances. 00:33:14:24 - 00:34:03:03 Speaker 1 They're not particularly close to shore. Okay. So can we just go down the list and see if radar can do the job? Yes. 00:34:03:03 - 00:34:13:05 Speaker 2 There's no water penetration. I can see the screen. 00:34:13:05 - 00:35:00:05 Speaker 1 Oh, shoot. Yes. Sit next to me. Okay, let's go from the top. So surface topography right? Insar. We need vegetation penetration. So do we agree the surface topography can be accomplished with XY and L, then with the resolution between 1 to 20 meter. 00:35:00:05 - 00:35:04:11 Speaker 2 Maybe just depends on the thickness of vegetation counts. 00:35:04:23 - 00:35:06:14 Speaker 5 Is more. 00:35:06:14 - 00:35:12:20 Speaker 3 Sorry, it's not clear to me. Is this the 1 to 20? Is this what we want or is this what's currently available? 00:35:13:16 - 00:35:16:17 Speaker 1 This is what you want. 00:35:16:17 - 00:35:17:21 Speaker 5 Okay. Yeah, that's like. 00:35:20:07 - 00:35:22:00 Speaker 3 I thought it was. Yeah, it was feasible. 00:35:23:06 - 00:35:27:17 Speaker 1 Okay. So what's feasible now? 00:35:27:17 - 00:35:33:11 Speaker 3 Oh, aspiration based has aspirational resolution needed. So that's probably what we want. 00:35:34:17 - 00:35:35:16 Speaker 5 You know? Okay. 00:35:36:02 - 00:35:36:14 Speaker 1 Fine. 00:35:37:05 - 00:35:43:07 Speaker 5 Yeah. 00:35:43:07 - 00:35:48:08 Speaker 1 What I'm trying to understand, what are we supposed to do here? Mapping to measurement means. 00:35:48:21 - 00:36:16:11 Speaker 3 If you if you put 122 surface topography right now, I think there are certain restrictions. If you go below 30 meters. I remember this from the Germans that you're not not allowed to. We can share that 30 meters and they don't want us to. They can cross DMZ six meters with dynamics, but we cannot share below 30 meters too. 00:36:16:12 - 00:36:36:10 Speaker 2 So yeah. So I think before this question, just take out the third column since you copy paste something, just take the third column out. It's too much details for that question I think is just can which technology can map what. 00:36:38:01 - 00:36:39:07 Speaker 1 Okay. So it. 00:36:39:07 - 00:36:41:03 Speaker 2 Doesn't it doesn't ask for resolution. 00:36:41:03 - 00:36:41:10 Speaker 5 Or. 00:36:42:09 - 00:37:01:01 Speaker 1 Whether it's insar or points or to a Mostar or whatever. Right. So okay, so first one is in some out of column. It's version. 00:37:01:01 - 00:37:03:05 Speaker 5 Two, then the. 00:37:06:08 - 00:37:11:04 Speaker 3 Topography means the topo, the surface, the DSM. 00:37:12:01 - 00:37:12:13 Speaker 5 Data. 00:37:13:02 - 00:37:13:15 Speaker 3 Determined. 00:37:13:24 - 00:37:16:18 Speaker 4 By topography in this team mean EPA. 00:37:17:24 - 00:37:20:12 Speaker 3 So we don't distinguish between. 00:37:20:16 - 00:37:21:14 Speaker 5 So that's the top. 00:37:22:05 - 00:37:23:01 Speaker 4 We want the bottom. 00:37:23:21 - 00:37:32:04 Speaker 5 Right? So we so we need balance our for the we we need to get the top and bottom for the first. 00:37:32:04 - 00:37:33:06 Speaker 4 Bullet land. 00:37:34:15 - 00:37:35:03 Speaker 5 Can be. 00:37:37:22 - 00:37:44:10 Speaker 4 I think we want ground topography. The bare bare earth topography. 00:37:44:10 - 00:37:45:16 Speaker 5 Means in the presence of. 00:37:45:16 - 00:37:47:23 Speaker 4 Vegetation in the present. That means the bottom. 00:37:48:13 - 00:37:50:06 Speaker 3 Yeah. The surface to surface. Yeah. 00:37:50:12 - 00:37:54:13 Speaker 4 In light our term is DTM digital terrain model. 00:37:54:17 - 00:37:58:23 Speaker 5 This one. 00:37:58:23 - 00:38:01:15 Speaker 3 It's not specific. That's what I was in space. 00:38:02:01 - 00:38:03:04 Speaker 1 Let's specify. 00:38:03:18 - 00:38:09:01 Speaker 4 Yeah, let's specify because we already have to the. 00:38:09:02 - 00:38:28:05 Speaker 5 Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean the and I would say you need plans are for you know are we going to distinguish it at that level surface the first for surface topography as well. If there's vegetation we need to separate out the the say the HP response, the vegetation and the vibe response. 00:38:28:05 - 00:38:29:01 Speaker 3 To the surface. 00:38:29:24 - 00:38:55:14 Speaker 5 If there's no vegetation you don't need, the points are I'm not exactly sure what we're after here. This your did this come from the way from our previous report this this table. 00:38:55:14 - 00:39:05:06 Speaker 4 Yeah when when they say surface topography in CV I think by default means that the first. 00:39:05:22 - 00:39:06:24 Speaker 1 Though it's DTM. 00:39:07:21 - 00:39:08:14 Speaker 4 Is DTM. 00:39:09:23 - 00:39:11:07 Speaker 1 So need instead. 00:39:12:16 - 00:39:19:18 Speaker 5 Always do we want to distinguish between by static and so on first, as I just simply. 00:39:22:03 - 00:39:29:19 Speaker 1 Say, I call this you mean by static insar is like single tap. 00:39:29:20 - 00:39:39:06 Speaker 5 Yeah, we're doing like a search team anywhere. We haven't read this. We're gonna take so simple stuff. 00:39:39:06 - 00:39:54:18 Speaker 3 So suppose there is, like, no vegetation. Can we just also go with tomography again? Which we use commercial constellations or so? 00:39:54:18 - 00:39:55:09 Speaker 5 Lomography. 00:39:55:12 - 00:40:00:20 Speaker 3 Sorry, sorry. Another rather graphic to get back and then trapped under gravity. 00:40:02:09 - 00:40:25:20 Speaker 4 I think probably for DSM globally, we already have a solution. If you do a study of photogrammetry, you get DSM if you do a certain type of work, a simple type of you get if you good kind of max X or all of them are giving you global thesis. 00:40:26:07 - 00:40:56:02 Speaker 3 So I'm a little bit biased towards applications here because you know, if there is like a hurricane of disaster and they need local high resolution and the optical wouldn't work there because of clouds. And so then other parameters we were seeing before for private companies could be an option. But we no, no. I mean, the current accuracy is so I would just put greater gravity for but with the caveat that for limited areas, very high resolution commercial sense, which think this way. 00:40:57:24 - 00:40:59:03 Speaker 5 It also depends. 00:40:59:17 - 00:41:33:04 Speaker 4 How they really do it. Planet has 200 imaging imagers in this space, so they collect data. That's why they're giving you almost weekly cloud images over tropics, where these 200 satellites at different times of the year is collecting snapshots. So if they have the option, so using those for stereo photogrammetry, they're not designed for that because they're cheap instruments. 00:41:33:04 - 00:41:56:06 Speaker 4 But the planet scope data might be useful. That's why they're creating some of the teams at less than one meter resolution Windows. So then you would have the option of photogrammetry for from space and also the option of having multiple of those instruments. That gives cloud feed. 00:41:57:21 - 00:42:12:24 Speaker 3 So what the reason why I'm seeing this is because if you want to leave out further gravity, then the same is the same concept of the retreating star that we mentioned before is doing ground gravity is not doing anything for two, right? So if we leave it out, that doesn't fit anymore. 00:42:13:13 - 00:42:14:13 Speaker 1 Like the wheel. 00:42:14:22 - 00:42:27:22 Speaker 3 Yeah, right. It's okay. So you could put stairs. Are they going to be kind of in. It's only specifics. No. We tended for maybe I don't know where you step on that thing. 00:42:28:11 - 00:42:29:16 Speaker 5 But it's not. 00:42:31:17 - 00:42:33:08 Speaker 3 Could defend himself against against. 00:42:34:07 - 00:42:46:13 Speaker 1 So what we move on. I like a frequency. Is there a preferred frequency for the surface topography. 00:42:46:13 - 00:42:52:13 Speaker 4 I think we are testing on 11 MP bang. I don't think you really can do that with the X or C. 00:42:52:18 - 00:42:59:01 Speaker 2 And then should we consider a thing that can be. 00:43:00:00 - 00:43:03:10 Speaker 5 Brilliant? I'm very humble. 00:43:03:15 - 00:43:03:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:43:04:21 - 00:43:05:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. And indeed. 00:43:07:07 - 00:43:09:06 Speaker 1 Well, well. Surface degradation. 00:43:09:20 - 00:43:14:13 Speaker 4 What p can be acquired in space? Biomass mission is proven. 00:43:15:15 - 00:43:16:12 Speaker 5 To work either. 00:43:17:05 - 00:44:00:03 Speaker 4 O not right. So but our data is global. So if you're doing multiple instruments, you can have. Yeah. And it's might be possible if we built the people in the US would allow us to propagate. We don't know. I mean there's and also having better data on vegetation globally. So right now we are not thinking about one single instruments right. 00:44:00:03 - 00:44:01:16 Speaker 5 So I see here. 00:44:03:23 - 00:44:15:09 Speaker 3 I see a column, but as per usual resolution in space, what about time? Are we supposed to add time as. Well, in complement. 00:44:15:09 - 00:44:57:18 Speaker 1 What's okay? Since I don't have the following time, maybe this is the work on. Yeah, I can put that in later. I can go look up. So what about vegetation, breathing structure? I guess in films or TV or what about vegetation, biomass and change is that poles are. 00:44:57:23 - 00:45:01:14 Speaker 5 So I think it would be the same as that. 00:45:01:20 - 00:45:07:14 Speaker 4 Thomas or LMP because reality is we have to use this structure to get the biomass anyway. 00:45:10:13 - 00:45:10:21 Speaker 5 For the. 00:45:19:01 - 00:45:20:01 Speaker 1 Well s for what. 00:45:20:12 - 00:45:21:06 Speaker 5 Retains. 00:45:24:15 - 00:45:33:24 Speaker 1 Okay. I surface topography is. 00:45:34:11 - 00:45:34:15 Speaker 5 A. 00:45:36:24 - 00:45:41:01 Speaker 1 Okay so it's pretty nice in SA. 00:45:41:01 - 00:45:43:09 Speaker 5 I'm not speaking what. 00:45:44:07 - 00:46:03:12 Speaker 1 Altimetry but bands and either the better. Okay. Ice thickness. 00:46:06:15 - 00:46:26:03 Speaker 5 So so the radar sounding like are we talking about she was talking about like surface over sea ice so yeah so okay but it's yeah that's that's what I'm getting. 00:46:26:11 - 00:46:35:13 Speaker 2 The I have a question. So comparing snow and ice, you're looking at elevation of the surface, you're not looking at a volume. 00:46:36:23 - 00:46:52:10 Speaker 3 Right when we want to have we want to be a form. So for the ice, even with the expense, we don't have penetration. So we do want to actually the surface. So should be. 00:46:53:07 - 00:46:56:06 Speaker 5 Sort of and. 00:46:56:19 - 00:46:59:19 Speaker 3 I people I don't know biomass. 00:46:59:19 - 00:47:01:04 Speaker 5 Will yeah. 00:47:04:11 - 00:47:27:00 Speaker 2 It is just I'm wondering because a snow and ice you talk about height but we don't talk about height in vegetation. So I know it would be nicer to have structure, but what about just height? Because we for height, we just need a band. 00:47:27:24 - 00:47:31:05 Speaker 5 Versus a single baseline. Yeah, yeah. 00:47:33:09 - 00:47:45:02 Speaker 1 What's your aspiration for Ice Pick? What kind of flexibility? So we know when you walked in your you. 00:47:46:13 - 00:47:46:19 Speaker 5 And. 00:47:47:19 - 00:47:49:01 Speaker 3 Sorry, what was the question. 00:47:50:24 - 00:47:51:11 Speaker 5 Between us? 00:47:52:03 - 00:48:10:12 Speaker 1 This is the radar section. We're wondering what ice thickness as an observable what kind of measurement needs would you need for ice thickness sounding? Right. 00:48:10:20 - 00:48:11:06 Speaker 5 Yeah. 00:48:11:20 - 00:48:53:05 Speaker 3 So spatial resolution ideally would be around three kilometers from the analysis that we've done so far. Vertical resolution would be around ten meters. Global coverage, meaning all the ice sheets, including the ice shelves and topography, no ice thickness. I mean, they are related. I mean, if we are talking about that topography, the distinction or one distinction would be that it would be a static measurement. 00:48:53:05 - 00:49:15:24 Speaker 3 You just captured it once and you're done. But if you're interested in ice thickness, that would be changing. So yeah, can you use one sensor for that? And so one question is, can you use one sensor for the band, one sensor for the surface. Yeah. Difference. Or if you if you if I use ice sanding, I get both. 00:49:16:05 - 00:49:36:01 Speaker 3 Yes. So that's the prefer radar technology. Yes, I said that, I said that for ice thickness, we could get the band and the surface with two different sensors. But radar sound is kind of giving us of them. And so this is the preferred technology versus Insar or Tomo, sorry, or. 00:49:36:01 - 00:49:41:00 Speaker 5 Whatever else does this change. 00:49:41:00 - 00:50:17:10 Speaker 3 For? Sorry as this change is for Antarctica, Greenland versus high mountain. Each other glaciers. I suspect the but topography is more complex. And in places like the outside of the polar sheets, not that they are simple in the polar ice sheets, but even more so with lots of gradients in and in the in the field that will interfere with your measurements. 00:50:17:10 - 00:50:40:00 Speaker 3 So how about we say ice sounding for Antarctica and Greenland and then maybe, you know, P band, Thomas R or L, Ben Thomas are for the other glaciers at higher resolutions because if you go three kilometers in Indonesia, then if that were I don't think you can do it. Yeah, I can't I don't think you can do it without band. 00:50:41:02 - 00:50:41:21 Speaker 3 I mean. 00:50:42:21 - 00:50:43:07 Speaker 5 You need. 00:50:43:14 - 00:50:45:16 Speaker 3 VHF. Sorry, go ahead. Zero. Yeah. 00:50:45:18 - 00:50:52:20 Speaker 5 I just could say like best case that Elba and you get maybe 50 band meters penetration and that's it so you'd have to go, yeah, I mean. 00:50:53:19 - 00:51:38:21 Speaker 3 VHF band might work, but yeah. But so the other question is if three kilometers is good for Antarctica, in Greenland, the state of play for alpine glaciers, those calculations were made for the ice sheets. Okay. Yeah, this is the spatial resolution in, let's say, most places. Some other some places would need even finer spatial resolutions. But these are the spatial resolutions that would, if you went below that, the results of calculating how the effect of topography on the flow of the ice and its contribution to sea level rise will not change. 00:51:39:03 - 00:51:54:22 Speaker 3 So you will not be gaining much by getting a spatial resolution of of better than about three kilometers. So that's going you're writing now is valid for Greenland Antarctica. 00:51:54:22 - 00:52:03:09 Speaker 2 But what I see here is if you get the VHF ground sounding just it once and then you just need the surface. 00:52:03:16 - 00:52:03:24 Speaker 5 Yeah. 00:52:03:24 - 00:52:27:00 Speaker 3 Again, the distinction is that if you are only interested in the in the back topography and there could be legitimate reasons for that interest, they affect numerical modeling of ice sheet flow and so on. You need it only once. Yes. If you're interested in ice thickness and how changes in time, then you need that measurement model after. 00:52:27:00 - 00:52:30:05 Speaker 2 If you just need to surface to just give and anything. 00:52:30:14 - 00:52:36:24 Speaker 3 Yeah. On the little time scales. Yes. 00:52:36:24 - 00:52:38:14 Speaker 5 I mean let me put. 00:52:38:14 - 00:52:41:22 Speaker 3 Rob on the spot. He might have a lot to say about that. 00:52:47:07 - 00:53:06:01 Speaker 5 And so yes, I think if we truly want to measure ice sheet thickness, I think you've got to go to low frequencies. VHF is is really the only thing that I think is going to do it. If you're looking at doing thickness change detection, then I think you want to potentially go to much higher frequencies or multi frequency measurements. 00:53:06:01 - 00:53:24:08 Speaker 5 This gets into, okay, are you responsive to the firn freeze thaw cycles? So I think it could get into some of the details of what do we want on the measurement. But as written, I think VHF would be the way to approach this one. 00:53:24:08 - 00:53:30:11 Speaker 1 Okay. 00:53:30:11 - 00:54:17:17 Speaker 2 So let's talk about hydrology, automation. Oh, snow. Yeah, I guess that's hydrology too. So it's just a game and that's it. We don't need to know the thickness because we know where the ground is given the other requirements and insar. But what like yes, we need. But I can see in water, liquid water that's just swot swot like ab. 00:54:17:17 - 00:54:18:12 Speaker 2 And again. 00:54:21:05 - 00:54:23:22 Speaker 1 Which one. 00:54:23:22 - 00:54:34:13 Speaker 2 It's just since you see shallow surface hydrology is very weird or floods, it's not in your table. 00:54:34:13 - 00:54:42:00 Speaker 1 You okay? I think you need one. Yeah, I was just saying they have super water. 00:54:42:16 - 00:54:45:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, water. Surface television. 00:54:48:00 - 00:54:52:07 Speaker 1 With water. 00:54:52:07 - 00:55:14:13 Speaker 2 But Gabe and. Yeah. There's no. What about swap two or three four on steroids and bathymetry is a it's not treated here. 00:55:15:05 - 00:55:23:01 Speaker 1 You know it was. 00:55:23:21 - 00:55:25:09 Speaker 5 Super urban balance. 00:55:25:18 - 00:55:27:13 Speaker 1 Oh yeah. I've seen this one. 00:55:27:19 - 00:55:31:02 Speaker 5 I know. 00:55:31:02 - 00:55:32:02 Speaker 1 Get right over. 00:55:36:00 - 00:55:52:04 Speaker 5 So so I mean I guess dynamics is somewhat vague but if we're trying to capture seasonal freeze thaw that's just repeat insar but you're going get it right it's. 00:55:55:23 - 00:55:57:15 Speaker 1 Okay. What else do you hear? 00:55:57:18 - 00:56:17:07 Speaker 5 Well, if if we're interested in volumetric water content pulse are that P band you could you could get this with Insar or just star imaging as well but you'd want to go to lower frequencies tend to mix meaning so and. 00:56:17:10 - 00:56:22:10 Speaker 3 That makes repeated DMS don't work for monitoring permafrost elevation change or. 00:56:25:02 - 00:56:40:07 Speaker 5 They work decently well but the the problem is that you have significant vegetation cover and so that can bias you know what your how you're treating the surface if you're looking at surface or or terrain. Oh. 00:56:40:20 - 00:56:50:16 Speaker 3 Okay. So you're assuming you're doing basically tomography. I'm just just curious, without the P band, you do tomography to filter out the vegetation and focus on permafrost. 00:56:52:05 - 00:57:07:11 Speaker 5 Not even that sophisticated. You you're assuming that your phase scattering center isn't significantly changing much. Or if you are and you're interested in how the water is changing, that you can allow that deviation, but you're not doing any kind of tomography, you're just doing conventional Insar. 00:57:07:20 - 00:57:10:23 Speaker 2 So what's the typical change in the division? 00:57:12:03 - 00:57:14:19 Speaker 5 1 to 5 centimeters? Oh, okay. 00:57:16:20 - 00:57:19:22 Speaker 2 So carbon insar repeated would not be sufficient. 00:57:21:02 - 00:57:31:15 Speaker 1 So the. 00:57:35:10 - 00:57:35:15 Speaker 5 Water. 00:57:36:09 - 00:57:44:00 Speaker 1 Well, it's badlands plates. However, both are, you know. 00:57:44:00 - 00:57:46:21 Speaker 5 The slide will be fine. 00:57:47:01 - 00:59:04:08 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, we have time. Okay. Yeah. Oh, actually, we're supposed to break it in 30. All right. Next, we're people on the line. Do you have any comments? Questions? Okay. Radar technology. Need a tech? Oh, radar technology. Needed technology. Oh, I have I written. I wrote it down actually. Just some thoughts. High frequency observations over range of spatial scales and resolution. 00:59:04:08 - 00:59:17:14 Speaker 1 I think this is where we were saying we need spaceborne in airborne right? I mean. 00:59:17:14 - 00:59:23:19 Speaker 2 It's just a semantic comment, free high frequency observation and we keep talking about Excel and. 00:59:24:13 - 00:59:26:14 Speaker 5 Things was I temporal frequency. 00:59:26:14 - 00:59:28:10 Speaker 2 Yeah I know we thought the frequency. 00:59:28:10 - 00:59:29:04 Speaker 1 Frequent. 00:59:33:19 - 00:59:37:01 Speaker 5 Was okay. 00:59:38:03 - 00:59:42:08 Speaker 1 But lots of observations, high temporal. 00:59:42:23 - 00:59:43:12 Speaker 5 Sampling. 00:59:43:23 - 00:59:45:01 Speaker 1 Templates, fine. 00:59:45:14 - 00:59:47:07 Speaker 5 Spatial experiences and. 00:59:49:13 - 00:59:50:02 Speaker 1 Buying. 00:59:50:19 - 00:59:54:06 Speaker 3 Sure to repeat pass. 00:59:54:06 - 00:59:59:02 Speaker 1 That's fine temporal. 01:00:01:11 - 01:00:02:06 Speaker 5 Typically. 01:00:05:09 - 01:00:27:11 Speaker 1 It's like the what do you call the subtle drops, but the subliminal message frequency buying temporal sampling over a range of spatial scales and resolution. I think maybe this is where we say need. 01:00:27:21 - 01:00:28:12 Speaker 5 Both. 01:00:29:15 - 01:00:52:15 Speaker 1 A word in airborne observations. Yeah technology gaps. I know I must have copied it from somewhere. 01:00:52:23 - 01:01:13:10 Speaker 3 So when do we prefer liner to like tomography, for instance? I think it's a gap. I don't I don't know when it's preferable to use tomography versus lighter for biomass estimation of vegetation. I guess in areas where you have cloud cover, then you would need to do tomography. That's like. 01:01:13:22 - 01:01:15:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe we put it in this chart. 01:01:16:05 - 01:01:18:07 Speaker 3 Okay. 01:01:18:07 - 01:01:23:22 Speaker 1 So I was, I guess vegetation structure. 01:01:25:04 - 01:01:35:19 Speaker 2 Is you could just stated as because we're talking about the needs here, technology needs to so evaluating the combination as well as the. 01:01:35:19 - 01:01:37:01 Speaker 5 Standalone by going. 01:01:38:17 - 01:01:44:07 Speaker 2 For different forest types. 01:01:44:07 - 01:02:19:13 Speaker 5 I guess in this context, I guess how specific are we being when we say vegetation structure? Like how are we quantifying what the structure is? Because that would dictate, I think, what the most efficient observation approach could be. So I don't know. That's a question. Yeah, I'm just going to say, I think we had that same question in the vegetation structure break out yesterday, and I don't think we came to a conclusion. 01:02:20:07 - 01:02:38:11 Speaker 5 We talked about it, but it's still up in the air as to what that actually means by vegetation structure. Thanks. We didn't set. Would you maybe just. Yeah, Robert. 01:02:38:11 - 01:02:43:05 Speaker 2 Said it depends on what you're trying to measure. So I guess the question is. 01:02:43:17 - 01:03:06:08 Speaker 5 Was a do you do you want biomass? Are you trying to measure some kind of canopy or density or you're trying to measure understory structure or just height? Yeah. 01:03:06:08 - 01:03:21:21 Speaker 1 So I set that rate, evaluate efficient observation, approach radar versus radar, light our fusion, something like that. 01:03:25:24 - 01:03:41:16 Speaker 5 Thing. Maybe we can say to the answer your question, do efficient observation approach depends on what our definition of vegetation sculpture is for what we're trying to do, right? 01:03:42:03 - 01:03:45:07 Speaker 1 Depends on what the. 01:03:45:20 - 01:03:51:15 Speaker 5 Product, what you're trying to measure. 01:03:51:15 - 01:05:36:03 Speaker 1 Okay, how about this? We need to define in products, the fine and products or different applications or communities and also conduct compare, read our only solution to read our light, our fusion solution. How's that? Some things to do right measures. No. Is there a radar solution that can measure snow that's that needs accuracy operation but it seems relevant for so forth that actually I think the snow that is really more testing figuring out accuracy because I know the snow folks have been looking into using insar as well as for imagery to get at snow. 01:05:36:03 - 01:06:14:07 Speaker 1 That's well, I guess polar imagery is more force WSUI so for snow that they're saying for Elbon Insar it doesn't work well in wet snow and also complex terrain. So those are the things that they identify that needs more work, whereas by static insar tape and by static insar seems to be more robust. It's not affected by wet snow, but you know, it's impacted by vegetation. 01:06:14:07 - 01:07:07:12 Speaker 1 So there are trade offs and I think that's an area that needs to be assessed more. Okay. So lightweight and compact radar payload. I said less than 100 kilo. I don't know. It might be even less than that. So efficient solution to provide hourly rovers, observation of specific events, I think, Pedro, you mentioned maybe in in my mentioning the tasking group of commercial asking of commercial satellites and also maybe Gail. 01:07:08:04 - 01:07:11:19 Speaker 5 Perhaps I am wondering, it's. 01:07:20:04 - 01:07:20:15 Speaker 1 Okay. 01:07:22:18 - 01:07:24:09 Speaker 5 To data latency. 01:07:24:24 - 01:07:37:21 Speaker 1 Oh, yes. 01:07:37:21 - 01:07:47:19 Speaker 5 Downlink, but no time. 01:07:47:19 - 01:07:58:14 Speaker 1 You know, ring board processing is smart tasking. 01:07:58:14 - 01:08:01:21 Speaker 5 Is there any representative for that proposal? The way. 01:08:03:00 - 01:08:09:12 Speaker 3 I was wondering, is there I'm there commenting that there was one proposal that was developing these board processing lines. 01:08:09:12 - 01:08:13:13 Speaker 5 Here. Here. No, she's no. 01:08:14:11 - 01:08:16:10 Speaker 3 It was a private company. I forgot. 01:08:16:10 - 01:08:19:07 Speaker 1 Licensing laws. No. 01:08:20:06 - 01:08:21:20 Speaker 5 Yeah, no. 01:08:21:20 - 01:08:35:09 Speaker 3 Because, like, you know, Marco's not here. She's not here. They would do well probably. Yeah. And come up with the few good points that we might be missing. 01:08:35:19 - 01:09:02:16 Speaker 1 You know. So Flex de sa is also developing well planning, laying the groundwork for developing on board processing. So we have these very powerful rf soc. Um, chips that has lots of processing power and once we figure out digital beamforming, the next step is to do onboard processing. 01:09:03:17 - 01:09:31:02 Speaker 3 And that's a field that of research. I've heard, you know the allied work is working on these like using AI for compressive sensing so they reduce out the range depending on the target on the ground versus supersensitive. You can basically acquire more images, save more space on your hard drives and increase your. Yes, you can see. 01:09:31:11 - 01:09:53:01 Speaker 1 I call this smart tasking, but it's compressive sensing as well good anything else. We got less than 10 minutes. Oh yeah. There's the next slide. Strengths and weaknesses. 01:09:54:21 - 01:09:58:19 Speaker 5 Since. 01:09:58:19 - 01:10:13:18 Speaker 1 Yes. Oh, what a year. What do you say? 01:10:13:22 - 01:10:45:24 Speaker 5 Let's say electronic beam scanning to increase coverage without sacrificing performance. The are most you can mention one of them like a rechargeable yes high resolution lights one three website plus multiple azimuth channels. 01:10:47:16 - 01:10:49:15 Speaker 1 That's the Airbus theme, right? 01:10:50:05 - 01:11:05:08 Speaker 5 That's Rosalie's planning to do this. 01:11:05:08 - 01:11:15:03 Speaker 1 Thank you. Strength. 01:11:16:11 - 01:11:31:04 Speaker 2 Well, continuous coverage. 01:11:31:04 - 01:11:36:03 Speaker 1 All weather see through vegetation. 01:11:43:12 - 01:11:44:19 Speaker 2 Addresses, multiple. 01:11:44:19 - 01:11:57:20 Speaker 5 Disciplines, clear heritage HQ, multiple improvements. 01:11:57:20 - 01:11:58:13 Speaker 1 We get to. 01:11:58:13 - 01:12:04:21 Speaker 5 Different parts of the surface in. 01:12:05:06 - 01:12:05:23 Speaker 1 Reputation. 01:12:06:16 - 01:12:06:21 Speaker 5 Yeah. 01:12:07:08 - 01:12:27:02 Speaker 2 It's a multiple frequency fusion. 01:12:27:02 - 01:12:49:03 Speaker 1 What are you seeing around your heritage? 01:12:49:03 - 01:12:53:09 Speaker 5 Weekly is only a continuous. Yeah. 01:12:57:00 - 01:13:14:21 Speaker 2 So it should should contiguous coverage, maybe wide swath, simultaneous Wide swath. It sits in a loop quality of being contiguous which means faster revisit. 01:13:15:12 - 01:13:19:22 Speaker 5 Right that's a little bit. 01:13:34:04 - 01:13:35:02 Speaker 1 Weaknesses. 01:13:35:04 - 01:13:39:03 Speaker 5 Eventually, uh. 01:13:40:01 - 01:13:50:06 Speaker 2 I'm standing in front of. And so weaknesses may be a difficulty in processing and understanding by users. 01:14:00:12 - 01:14:12:21 Speaker 1 How is it sensitive to a certain direction and that actually directional like there's shadows and. 01:14:16:23 - 01:14:17:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, geometric. 01:14:18:02 - 01:14:18:24 Speaker 1 Distortion. 01:14:19:03 - 01:14:20:10 Speaker 2 Geometric distortions. 01:14:20:10 - 01:14:24:00 Speaker 1 I guess that's a good one. 01:14:24:00 - 01:14:29:19 Speaker 5 Is there power and size constraints for certain flexible winner? 01:14:30:13 - 01:14:30:16 Speaker 3 Oh. 01:14:30:23 - 01:14:43:04 Speaker 5 I think that's it's not just a weakness. How about a limited number of spatial frequencies. 01:14:45:22 - 01:14:47:12 Speaker 3 We've compared to lighter. 01:14:47:18 - 01:14:51:00 Speaker 5 Yeah, get lighter. 01:14:51:06 - 01:14:57:22 Speaker 1 How about articulate frequency restrictions. 01:14:59:17 - 01:15:06:09 Speaker 5 Yeah. How would that be understood. A spatial frequency. 01:15:08:20 - 01:15:16:03 Speaker 1 RF radio frequency restriction. How is that evening event. 01:15:16:03 - 01:15:43:17 Speaker 5 I mean, but that's that's good to I meant the difference between a, a tall ground and a light pulse. The light has hundreds of free components and the telegram has maybe 50. Yeah, maybe vertical resolution. They would make the point it's horizontal actually, but you know vertical. 01:15:43:17 - 01:15:57:23 Speaker 1 Vertical resolution in the agitation, strobe in vegetation. How's that. 01:15:57:23 - 01:15:58:08 Speaker 5 Yeah. 01:15:58:17 - 01:15:59:13 Speaker 1 It's low. 01:15:59:17 - 01:16:14:16 Speaker 5 Relatively awesome. And we see cost effectiveness in terms of some it's. 01:16:15:03 - 01:16:16:00 Speaker 2 Cost effective. 01:16:17:05 - 01:16:18:15 Speaker 1 Depends on what right. 01:16:18:21 - 01:16:20:00 Speaker 5 If compared to one. 01:16:22:04 - 01:16:24:24 Speaker 2 What's on the next slide or expensive for the last 30 seconds. 01:16:26:10 - 01:16:27:20 Speaker 5 Okay. 01:16:27:20 - 01:16:30:17 Speaker 2 Sort of commercial. Yes. 01:16:31:21 - 01:16:38:10 Speaker 1 Really the worst or platforms. 01:16:39:11 - 01:16:41:14 Speaker 5 Like this is, I would say. 01:16:41:23 - 01:16:43:11 Speaker 1 Only available. 01:16:45:07 - 01:16:51:19 Speaker 5 For for a weakness their power in size constraints, which limits platform options. 01:16:56:15 - 01:16:58:05 Speaker 1 Over the ceiling one. 01:16:58:06 - 01:17:01:03 Speaker 5 To stop stuff we. 01:17:03:00 - 01:17:18:00 Speaker 1 Bring selection. Okay so the strength is you can get a strength as you can get ice thickness with it, whereas you couldn't get it. 01:17:18:00 - 01:17:18:06 Speaker 5 With. 01:17:18:20 - 01:17:19:06 Speaker 1 Any the. 01:17:19:07 - 01:17:35:13 Speaker 5 Movers you either quit but but I would say weakness. 01:17:35:13 - 01:17:37:17 Speaker 3 Is also penetration is a weakness. 01:17:38:01 - 01:17:58:00 Speaker 5 Depending how you see that's pretty much unique characteristic okay. Which is restricted it. But there is a okay. 01:17:58:00 - 01:18:05:19 Speaker 1 Combining measurements. Ooh I think then she has a very nice. 01:18:06:04 - 01:18:08:21 Speaker 5 So I mean lighter. Yeah. We're. 01:18:09:14 - 01:18:11:17 Speaker 3 We've been swamped and use our. 01:18:12:12 - 01:18:14:01 Speaker 5 That's that. 01:18:14:16 - 01:18:22:22 Speaker 2 In here. I would also emphasize the fact we couldn't use baseline spaceborne with airborne hotspots. 01:18:23:10 - 01:19:57:07 Speaker 3 Massive sensors that are super passive. Yeah, passive sensors. I think labor could assist with absolute ranging. That's the third question. Optical could assist for biases as well in the urban areas, for example, of the VMs, just to detect the buildings and lighter as well. Yeah. And vegetation as well, you know, I mean, one thing, one lesson that I think we learned with envy, Seth, is that I think you had another sensor that you could do that was very corrections. 01:19:57:07 - 01:20:02:13 Speaker 3 But I guess this is more for SDC than this TV. 01:20:02:13 - 01:20:02:24 Speaker 1 It's true. 01:20:03:15 - 01:20:19:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. And they said they had contemporary acquisition radar and forgotten what's the name of the instrument? But turns out you can do some atmospheric corrections there and more accurate compared to models or others. But I don't remember the name. 01:20:19:14 - 01:20:23:08 Speaker 5 Yeah. 01:20:23:08 - 01:20:27:06 Speaker 3 And remember I can look at breath and I'm it's I'm getting tired. 01:20:30:20 - 01:20:36:04 Speaker 1 Are images are that sensitive to water some sort of spectrometer. 01:20:36:18 - 01:20:49:20 Speaker 2 Oh okay. So you didn't had the airborne combining measurements anywhere combining measurement with top on. Yeah. Spaceborne and airborne. 01:20:50:14 - 01:21:02:15 Speaker 3 If you meant if you have a nicer sense I mentioned you can have a nicer sensor and then you have an airplane and you want to topography that could be your base static within so within constraints of course, but. 01:21:03:22 - 01:21:07:09 Speaker 5 My but. 01:21:10:00 - 01:21:19:06 Speaker 3 Yeah but there also like for for certain things you could have fixed to redo that and you can do by static. 01:21:21:21 - 01:21:22:05 Speaker 5 Jets. 01:21:23:09 - 01:21:38:15 Speaker 2 Even with without the by static it could be you came up with the DBM. So if you need a better DM in a given region, you can go and do it with the airborne to supplement the Spaceborne one. 01:21:38:15 - 01:21:43:06 Speaker 3 So I don't know if that would be better than lighter, but. 01:21:43:18 - 01:21:50:07 Speaker 5 Yeah. 01:21:50:07 - 01:22:07:06 Speaker 2 I was thinking more in terms of a TV mission can be spaceborne and airborne a combination of that that's how I was thinking of it. 01:22:07:06 - 01:22:25:23 Speaker 3 Thank you Mike. Fair break. 01:22:25:23 - 01:22:32:09 Speaker 5 Now. Here you go in. No, I'm. 01:22:34:23 - 01:22:45:06 Speaker 1 In airborne campaigns. Last thing. Well, what would you like to do? 01:22:45:06 - 01:22:57:03 Speaker 2 Multi instrument campaigns capturing the range of vegetation structure, the full range of structure. 01:22:57:03 - 01:22:59:08 Speaker 1 All from the. 01:23:01:20 - 01:23:03:14 Speaker 2 Leaders to photogrammetry. 01:23:04:23 - 01:23:05:16 Speaker 5 Multi frequency. 01:23:06:05 - 01:23:07:09 Speaker 2 Multi frequency. 01:23:08:04 - 01:23:13:12 Speaker 5 Are there any shifts? Just are there any. 01:23:13:12 - 01:23:25:03 Speaker 1 Specific areas that you would like to target? Are there any specific areas that you would like to target, locations. 01:23:25:03 - 01:23:54:12 Speaker 2 For example, I know from experience global mapping cannot be it. We could not capture the California. It's one of them. So it's kind of the extremes. But then boreal temperate coastal tropical dryland. 01:23:56:08 - 01:23:58:07 Speaker 5 Alpine cryosphere targets. 01:23:58:20 - 01:24:18:03 Speaker 2 Alpine regions because then you have slope issues. Yeah. 01:24:18:03 - 01:24:18:14 Speaker 1 Well. 01:24:19:21 - 01:24:23:03 Speaker 2 The datasets I have the list of the existing ones. 01:24:23:10 - 01:24:46:08 Speaker 1 The summary bullets. We did a lot. Does. Okay. Thank you so much. Anything else? Anything else you guys would like me to convey? Yes, Michael. 01:24:56:22 - 01:24:58:20 Speaker 2 Blitz fires. 01:25:02:05 - 01:25:17:12 Speaker 5 Your cuts, but. 01:25:37:09 - 01:25:56:19 Speaker 1 Okay, last call some SAC. You have anything you want to add, Kyle? No. Okay. 01:25:57:11 - 01:26:03:02 Speaker 5 Alex She said everything. 01:26:03:15 - 01:26:24:03 Speaker 1 Everything okay. All right. Pietro Right. Alberto Sorry. I'm so sorry. Alberto Okay, thank you so much. I really appreciate all your inputs mean.