00:00:05:13 - 00:00:26:07 Speaker 1 So sorry. Everybody I know everybody online heard it. It's just thing I wanted to say. This is going to absolutely bring group of programs, managers to work with. I feel like we're all rowing in the same direction. Bob I'm really sorry. Carolyn, and looking forward to working with you. All we're going to have to do is have people present from there. 00:00:26:20 - 00:00:37:16 Speaker 1 Their machines take the money and use your might for the pickup. We'll meet it over here with I'm presenting. So with that all, are you ready to go? Is there. 00:00:38:08 - 00:00:39:22 Speaker 2 No, I just. The Indians. 00:00:40:07 - 00:00:44:15 Speaker 1 I'm all right. You have to be on the women. So do you want to be a spokesperson? 00:00:44:22 - 00:01:24:23 Speaker 2 Can go. So I won't go through all the slides that we had, but we kind of focused. We spent the most time discussing why I'm the solid earth science gaps. So I am really on the what was the needed modeling simulations and investigations. So again, we had, you know, we had a list of kind of topics I made and there's one page of topics, but we had a active discussion going into starting point simulation. 00:01:24:23 - 00:02:08:05 Speaker 2 So we were said, All right, this is a group that's looking at bolting into bags using optical imagery. I know what now when you consider vertical resolution and I are for the data, right? Because if you're going into the result of displacement versus vertical. That's right. Needs to be considered there. There's different sensitivities for different component. And and there's also a need for more time and observation and different resolutions to reevaluate them. 00:02:08:05 - 00:02:47:10 Speaker 2 I impairment pointed out the need for high temporal sampling to connect changes to positive processes. So in sampling something happens. Maybe a landslide due to heavy rain, but you it's not discovered for some period of time. So the conservation part of a frequent cleans then you can better nail down when things happen, especially when regions and I and Steve pointed out there's a need to prove capabilities. 00:02:47:10 - 00:03:14:21 Speaker 2 So a lot of the at least airborne or a lot of high resolution 400 view that's been obtained from minor other sensors in from airborne and so you know what is right what does Steve bring this this time the game changer in and the idea was it was kind of two or three aspects. One is, all right, high timber of sand is really the frontier. 00:03:15:13 - 00:03:53:14 Speaker 2 Right. And separation and vegetation. And then finally was especially good satellite mission compared to past airborne observations. You can get it's really spatial coverage for coverage that's important speak for this in many places that's something for you to how many places have you know high resolution data and so getting getting much higher resolution temporal component will be a big game changer for many targets then. 00:03:54:13 - 00:04:24:09 Speaker 2 And as long as they keep on was pointing out and you know as we move forward now so we will need to you know to automate or either joint missions or STV in the front text, you know what the what the global constellation sound. Right. So at least those that can do part of it look like, you know, in the 24 timeframe. 00:04:25:08 - 00:05:07:18 Speaker 2 And certainly there are missions such as permeating from East Room that are expected to go up around 20, 30 timeframe, would probably inform know what comes down the pipeline from and the vehicle line. So I, I and then I, you know, another aspect that was pointed out is cascading hazards by, you know, earthquakes, landslides. So you have a large earthquake happening in fall and other places where after a large earthquake and there's a cascading hazards, landslides occur and you're working to understand their temporal migration. 00:05:07:18 - 00:05:49:23 Speaker 2 So again, that gets to fast revisit times and other aspects in times of the geologic record and things like, well after same route for your own process, how fast you degrade your first. That can be occurring a very long time, but but being able to not only measure after Virgin, but really having a spectrum of rainfall in relation to events that have happened hundreds of thousands of years is important for those types of sequences. 00:05:50:03 - 00:06:40:17 Speaker 2 And then tied in with that, as pointed out, there's paleo landscapes, especially in the locations understanding and also understanding how tectonic setting relates to impacts vegetation side of the equation. And let's see, I think that was and that was all we we did discuss a bit briefly on airborne mutations versions of stable, stable location contagion versus vegetation in tectonic areas, but really ongoing science in what we. 00:06:43:14 - 00:07:04:08 Speaker 1 Thankfully send us either to break out everybody but we will be. So let's solicit the input, soliciting input from the community. So that we can keep this dialog going now, meaning try asynchronous style work. So okay, next. 00:07:04:08 - 00:07:38:13 Speaker 3 So I think in the program I'm just going to I don't have any slides to share. I just jotted down some notes. We, we sort of step through the slides incrementally. Hopefully I don't turn anything off up here. I definitely had some WebEx challenges, so apologists for people. So we started off, I think with some good discussion about how do you determine what fits in a different science discipline as we spoke about in the beginning, you know, permafrost might span several disciplines, snow, things like that. 00:07:38:13 - 00:08:01:20 Speaker 3 And so how do we kind of lumped together these things into different categories? Where do ice caps fit? And so we were we were just kind of thinking of ways that you might be able to to make those classifications and maybe you don't need to. And that's totally fair, too. But how maybe it's more related to how their measurement needs map out. 00:08:01:20 - 00:08:27:04 Speaker 3 And so maybe you make connections in that way where if the needs of a different topic might be completely different to the other needs within that discipline, they might fall better within a different discipline. But I think ultimately what we sort of came to as a a recommendation is to have a cross-cutting group within STV of what are the, what are the scientific topics that kind of reach beyond their, their individual disciplines. 00:08:27:04 - 00:08:56:00 Speaker 3 So that would be I think something that could be particularly useful as we want to make sure these disciplines don't get lost because we kind of assume, you know, another group is is taking care of it, for instance, snow or permafrost or whatever, whatever the the connecting topic might be. So not that so moving on to objectives and goals, you know, initially I was a bit apprehensive to have so many listed there and that's just for one discipline. 00:08:56:00 - 00:09:20:14 Speaker 3 And then, you know, we have multiple disciplines and is there really a need to be more concise with that? And there was some also good discussion about how maybe we should approach that. And it's not necessarily limiting the number of objectives. It's more getting all the objectives up there that we think are still relevant, but then making a maybe intelligent prioritization of those different objectives. 00:09:20:14 - 00:09:50:23 Speaker 3 Can other missions meet them? Can is there a commercial platforms that can help us achieve these objectives? Basically try to kind of tease out what is it that STV can give us that we might not be able to get from other platforms? Yeah, sorry, just go through my list. Your assessment of how existing observations and commercial platforms can help address those in order to help us maybe focus in on some of the priorities of these different objectives. 00:09:51:22 - 00:10:19:02 Speaker 3 Another, I think, kind of topic that was a a thread among most of the discussion was how do we include the program of record? You know, what can we leverage from existing datasets? How can we use that to help us better, better generate or better generate to create more interesting scientific questions moving beyond sort of what we have right now. 00:10:19:02 - 00:10:43:08 Speaker 3 And so it might actually using the program of record can actually help us generate those more interesting research questions. I'm sure this came up in many different groups that how to balance the applications needs versus science needs. And and that's really just more of a comment that kind of came up a few times. And then we also had the challenge and it's probably the same for other groups of, you know, ice sheets. 00:10:43:08 - 00:11:07:23 Speaker 3 We have lots of observations, airborne satellite, but then we have other groups like permafrost where, you know, it's a much more small, targeted region. And so they're not as data sort of rich as we are. And so how can we ensure that they have the observations that they need to help build their science and living on the science gaps? 00:11:07:23 - 00:11:35:02 Speaker 3 We we talked a little bit about that all season that they're not necessarily a science gap. But I think where the science comes into play is building a sort of improving our process models that can then make better ozone simulations. So the ozone is really to help inform the cost benefit of various scenarios and architectures, whereas we'd really need process model improvements, which is where the science comes in to make sure that we have a a functional ozone environment. 00:11:35:24 - 00:12:04:21 Speaker 3 How do we use both non STV and STV related observations to inform us of dynamic processes in the Cryosphere? And we ended with sort of a an action within our group of to map the individual pieces, work against the identified science gaps in this TV report to find those that are being addressed in those which we're not as a group too hopefully sort of identify as potential future targets for study work. 00:12:05:13 - 00:12:30:15 Speaker 3 And then another sort of follow up question was how do we how do we pull the community to see what they're there? We're you know, we have this workshop, but there's also people out there that are working on study related topics. And how can we, you know, make sure that we're tuned into their work and see how it helps us identify STV requirements, measurement needs and how do we link to other missions? 00:12:30:15 - 00:12:53:04 Speaker 3 Again, this kind of came up already. I won't dwell on it. How do we use existing measurement or sorry? How do we use existing observations to help us build an ideal prime mission going forward? You know, how do we get to the Time series, say that we want without maybe necessarily needing a mission that has to run for ten years since sort of things like that? 00:12:53:07 - 00:13:18:24 Speaker 3 How do we basically, you know, leveraging what exists, what is hopeful to come in the future and then see where that unique contribution that STV can give the community. And and I think one really interesting thought, one of the scientists in the room was, you know, we now have a program of record in some ways and how do we leverage that to tell ourselves, are we really looking for new science or are we looking for continuity? 00:13:19:08 - 00:13:45:00 Speaker 3 And I think that is something that I think a lot of the disciplines have to to think about when when, when building their STV sort of science questions and needs. Let's see, I think let me see what's left. I don't want to take up too much time, but then there's also the challenge of how do we leverage existing technologies or sorry, existing satellite observations without being reliant. 00:13:45:00 - 00:14:09:19 Speaker 3 So, you know, you have to be independent. It can't in some ways shape or form. You can't just say we can only do X if we have Y. And then what happens in Y is when we didn't get unfortunately too much into the tech combos and fusion due to time constraints. But I think I expect lots of opportunities in our group and for experiments we didn't necessarily get there either. 00:14:09:19 - 00:14:41:02 Speaker 3 But as I said in the beginning, we have, you know, long heritage of laser altimetry from Operation Icebridge. So I think for us specifically speaking more to sea ice and ice sheets, we have a good foundation of of laser altimetry. So it will be interesting once we sort of see the different STV architectures that come forth of, of trying new technologies in over the over the cryosphere because that we don't have that heritage from so and I'll end it there I think so who's next. 00:14:42:24 - 00:15:20:04 Speaker 2 Okay, I'm in our meeting. I don't know if you were ever connected to the outside, to the banks. We tried at least beginning. I didn't want to be successful, so it was mainly people in the B. So we went briefly over a couple of things. One was basically the the science of the vegetation, its structure and its TV surface to function, which is directly related to our own requirements because we need both surface topography and vegetation substrate. 00:15:20:16 - 00:16:00:03 Speaker 2 Therefore we need to really do our science. And so it comes from different parts of the world sometimes one of them is basically to quantify the entire global ecosystems and they're basically function services. The other thing comes part of the requirement comes from the fact that we really need to see changes on these ecosystems, and that includes food boxes of water and carbon and nutrient and energy that comes and relates to their structure and and also see what is their natural dynamics in terms. 00:16:00:21 - 00:16:26:11 Speaker 2 So that means brain and most of the natural dynamics of the system. The other thing is these systems constantly get to students. You and and by natural you know storms and deforestation degradation fires droughts all the buildings intact impact these vegetation structures. So our requirement to really address requirements that comes from all of the other types of activities. 00:16:26:20 - 00:16:53:20 Speaker 2 And and then there are other issues in the requirements that relate to other disciplines. So you see solitude to some extent, hydrology also studies that are required vegetation structure. So we have to navigate what comes out in the white paper, which you can see there is these requirements that we mentioned to some of these size, size science questions. 00:16:54:04 - 00:17:18:10 Speaker 2 It is it has both aspirational and threshold. You won't you won't be able to read those numbers, but it is in the report by paper and they are really kind of the general set of requirements. So we we talk about that actually, but we need to break this down much better in terms of addressing some of these questions that we have. 00:17:18:10 - 00:17:50:12 Speaker 2 So we came up with the key concerns and questions and these were to what extent the SPV requirements would vegetation structure include the variety of designs and application needs? I think the way that it's in three now, it just gives you the requirement, but it needs to bring them in much better. So we need to basically conversely, that would be some things to focus on aspirational requirement but include trade decides to rain but right set of requirements for us. 00:17:51:02 - 00:18:20:17 Speaker 2 I think I'm really interested in those aspirational requirements, but we're going to be limited to see exactly how we can develop a mission to address those things. So train the studies is certainly important for us and those training studies do not always define some of us funded to do that, but I think promoting that is extremely important. How do we address the dynamics and long term trends in vegetation structure? 00:18:21:01 - 00:18:47:19 Speaker 2 Do a combination of sampling in time in space versus on the other requirements? This is something that actually becomes important. A lot of things that we're addressing is not looking at static information from the state of the system, but how the system changes. Some of these changes have long term trends, so continue to open mission or long term missions is important. 00:18:47:19 - 00:19:18:09 Speaker 2 You know, aspirational requirements. We put 72 months and as the aspirational like six years to really see some of these trends, signal trends and market trends that happens. So I think that's very important. Then the other thing is our system really uses multiple instruments. We really depend on radar systems for these 1 to 1 coverage. You can mine our system. 00:19:18:09 - 00:19:47:15 Speaker 2 That gives us kind of the sampling, but accurate but also high resolution from steering to gravity. So how do we really navigate these requirements within these systems? Some of these sensors have their own specific design and and issues. So I think we need to kind of break it down also better so we know exactly which one can help us and eventually come up with the mission design for that. 00:19:48:03 - 00:20:18:24 Speaker 2 And then there was also a question about how do we really we use our measurements in the models that can really contribute science, either being the existing science pushing sort of the new science that comes in. So so there are a couple of key suggestions that came up. I'm going to cover these things. One is we need to kind of we keep saying the good requirements, but we need to really use some of the measurements that was done with other disciplines or on the ground to define requirements better. 00:20:18:24 - 00:20:42:11 Speaker 2 One good example is we keep saying vertical structure in vegetation pipe with a lot of people are interested in what's going on there. Sorry, which stations like, you know, for fuel loads and dump meters and you know, right above the surface and that's important. Surface topography also is extremely important for us to quantify these things. So those things need to come in. 00:20:42:15 - 00:21:06:10 Speaker 2 We need to think about alternative ways of defining this structure, which are really related both to ecological needs and the science, for example. And so that will keep saying fight. And I can see we should think about volume and density, vertical profile of biomass. These things are not in the white paper. We need to bring them in and then gradients are extremely important. 00:21:06:10 - 00:22:01:02 Speaker 2 We need to think about this and then work the questions from people about the type of the studies needs to be done in order to identify these departments that we talked. Then we should actually continue in this type of community meetings to ask other disciplines to come to respect. And you. Thank you. So welcome that we did succeed Window WebEx and the condition minutes and that allowed us to reach the next round for people we still one from from registration structure thank you and so I used the pamphlets actually I transcribed all the notes during the meeting in template. 00:22:01:02 - 00:22:46:17 Speaker 2 So we were starting again with the to question how will water availability and flow change? We can have an increasingly dynamic landscapes and the goals are you and I'm going to go through them. But one of the things I noticed from the previous three speakers or briefs is that the tools need to go one with expanding and or people in. 00:22:47:19 - 00:22:48:18 Speaker 1 A very. 00:22:51:03 - 00:22:51:11 Speaker 2 Study. 00:22:53:13 - 00:23:38:02 Speaker 2 Yes. So there are there's definitely a need to have broad strokes between the different disciplines. And I think Lori will bring will bring it and bring exchangeable into the original so much overlap when we might move to join at some point but anyway so we and I geology perspective so wherever there surface surface water and what exists today is a swot which will still available but wilderness there's a need for more frequent repeat and spatial resolution and we need to look a little bit more in details about the different applications. 00:23:39:06 - 00:24:42:06 Speaker 2 The discussions were driven by what was in attendance, so there was a need to expand the group and look at different types of applications in science in the rain. In doing this outreach to different disciplines, those we were really intended on split and durations and for example, certain instrumental brilliance. But as we several disciplines around the space, both observations and the type of products that would be needed, most people use at least L2 level requirements during the event, but some people would like to have access to raw data to, for example, because of that and it can resolve all the needs for science was and as I mentioned before in the beginning we needed more 00:24:42:17 - 00:25:17:19 Speaker 2 information Snowden or still water equivalents. So that seems to be the the most important one. And we also talked about the fact that other missions or different measurements from different groups in here, I think it was mentioned earlier, too, even though some of the measurements may be addressed by an Explorer mission or another group we should look at to make sure that that is being addressed. 00:25:17:22 - 00:25:48:01 Speaker 2 And that's also why we can speak and keep communicating with the other groups and what they did. We had a little wishlist, but again is driven by whoever was in the room. So there was continuous need for continuous or around ten days a week or ten days. We gave at least one or two communities for them, sometimes insignificant. 00:25:48:08 - 00:26:27:07 Speaker 2 No, but might be different in perpetuity until we get that official will. Ability and game changing type of measurements would be on the order of one centimeter or looking across in the ideology perspective. They need to move that in that to see hear the different perspectives and at some point will need to and I think I will come to this point a little bit later, but we need to reconcile all those requirements that will be done for those specializing in environment. 00:26:27:22 - 00:27:00:02 Speaker 2 Really, and again by themes like this. Anyway. So one of the game changing measurements would have been also to know, to be able to find, for example, satellite imagery so that that's also a requirement very a need that students for they've seen uniformity. But we know that for example I sent two or three neither going to really make it into a river delta, for example, where you have very big water. 00:27:00:11 - 00:27:31:09 Speaker 2 So maybe there's a need for a very high power neither. And we gave it the name Don't look up. We just agree with the rules of evidence. Okay. So so the diversity of measurements just in the hydrology group is so large that we talked about developing a way to specialize or to map the requirements or the measurement needs across disciplines or in this study simulation. 00:27:32:00 - 00:28:30:17 Speaker 2 So meaning for each place on the needs for different disciplines and have the requirements there and each are losing weight. The space of no need to be able to optimize the mission. Always we need to think about the mission within the context of multiple missions. So considered three space. It's very important. And we also mentioned and the is the new observing system the notes program may be helpful or targeted means that the is bringing more on map so the okay what do we need and a community I think given the amount of data that's already available freely under the banks for example whether it's from the Delta X can be in order to have or 00:28:30:17 - 00:29:03:14 Speaker 2 someone can be in the room and the swamp and bolded in year one was been born then I think there's a need to be focused on analysis rather than experiments and at this point in the future, but we really need to be in a business to move. This will be asset derived to ensure conservation in here is what we think the community should be doing in the next few years. 00:29:03:17 - 00:29:32:14 Speaker 2 So one is to bring line, there will be a little bit better. So we make note the different rules in a variety of landscapes and environmental conditions that we could explore and discover potential and derivatives to address those limitations when there is confusion or where there is through this I've been here, which is bridge of that length of the regions or one of the regions with models for digital. 00:29:33:21 - 00:30:05:14 Speaker 2 And we should consider when we think about the writing and distribution, we have to consider future mission as well. If it's been maybe someone sensing latency issues to me dealt with, maybe the sense of invisibility, do you? We need to go by the list of feasible applications and in terms of the mapping we need to do available because that's the list. 00:30:05:17 - 00:30:41:21 Speaker 2 And on the previous slide, if not, then against the measurement objective, which is the spatial map, we should also give priority from the existing data in the sense there there's a lot of literature on remote sensing measurement, accuracy reasons in an open field so that we can be review that. And that's common here. It is the law in one country name the government and so we always as many previous slides and other speakers that we need to consider improving on record. 00:30:42:01 - 00:31:02:16 Speaker 2 That's the international program on record. And we were talking about collaboration, but actually collaboration may not save money from what I understood. So maybe we should speak about international coordination instead. What about innovation? And I think that's it. Yeah. And so reading from your. 00:31:08:10 - 00:31:22:19 Speaker 1 Does the work of work in progress. Thank you. I like the international collaboration. I agree. You're going to hear one side of this. The one, the book. So I want to be like this. 00:31:22:20 - 00:31:53:20 Speaker 3 She did not show side. I know, but I'm older than she actually. It's okay. So Coastal Geomorphology, a great group and I loved it because we had a lot of diverse perspective in terms of technology representation and as well as coastal geomorphologist and all the things. And the first part of our conversation was a lot about kind of the identity of Coastal Geomorphology and how that connects to other other groups, particularly hydrology. 00:31:54:06 - 00:32:17:23 Speaker 3 And we talked a lot about that territory too, but I did I did find something that I read. So you later for like title influences because that was something we were interested in anyway. The whole idea is what goes into coastal geomorphology and, and it's a lot of the talk about the structure, if you will, and how it's changing. 00:32:17:23 - 00:32:40:11 Speaker 3 But then some fluid dynamics that go in there and currents and waves and and again, tidal influence and that we need to work with hydrology, too, to make sure we're not repeating things or or that we're all on the same page. What we started with was kind of taking an inventory of what our current capabilities are in terms of airborne and space based systems. 00:32:40:11 - 00:33:13:08 Speaker 3 And there's actually a lot of available systems, airborne systems through, you know, or USGS or Army Corps of Engineers. And so we're pretty competent. And at least for the U.S., those kinds of airborne coverage that are available. And then we also talked about the growing number of institutions and organizations that have their own drone programs with a variety of sensors, which are really a rich resource for multi sensor distributed system testing at the local level. 00:33:13:08 - 00:33:58:08 Speaker 3 So that's going to be really important. Some of the emerging capabilities for new, new light are to go back inside our systems and we actually put nice as up emerging just because it hasn't launched in all of that many natural connection to what are the measurements needs similar to what these systems can do. And we we discussed at length about the the needs that are listed in there in the incubation study and how it seems like we need to take a step back and revisit what the definitions are of something like vertical resolution was brought up does a sampling is related to the sampling, the number of points on something or is it like a 00:33:58:08 - 00:34:32:09 Speaker 3 resolvable blob that you can get from your measurement? And then I think that maybe all the groups think of it in a different way or use metrics in a different way. So we were going to put that on the list of things to to discuss further. And then we also discussed the other metric or need was latency as that and accuracy as a, as a combined approach for applications in science, which I think it warrants further exploration and discussion. 00:34:32:09 - 00:34:57:19 Speaker 3 And then what's the revisit time like the repeat measurements and we're doing monitoring for sure and we need to figure out how to do a baseline because the Coastal Geomorphology is an event driven subject matter. And we how are you going to get a relevant baseline and then go still get accurate enough data after an event as an example to you to do the change detection. 00:34:57:19 - 00:35:24:16 Speaker 3 So these are all areas that we we want to explore. And I think that's actually about it. I feel like I have several pages in my but and it will fill about 87 follow on telling them so I'm not going to risk at a loss of of content but there's a lot to like to do here. But I think that we're on the we're on the right path. 00:35:25:10 - 00:35:25:18 Speaker 2 Based. 00:35:29:00 - 00:35:50:06 Speaker 1 Thank you you also scheduled well so we have time for discussion when we're going with all the discussion I want all the breakout leads from tomorrow in as many JPL as possible to come up. We're going to redo the Web lines tomorrow with different numbers for every single one of them. Maybe they'll solve some of the problems because it's looking like it's on WebEx back. 00:35:50:08 - 00:36:24:08 Speaker 1 And so anyway, we're I was thinking if you can help a few other maybe some of the following where you can help them be great. I was monitoring the chart I didn't see any in I will tag team in your thinking notes them them are there any questions discussion anything that was missed one day I was thinking about listening to everybody talk is we want to get community feedback and we're going to have some forms. 00:36:24:09 - 00:36:53:13 Speaker 1 Managers for meetings, are we going to know where we're going to get a thing, but also input on what's important priorities and priorities and then you'll see more of that traceability matrix tomorrow. Great thing. It might be interesting for people to put in a from the science goals down through measurement needs individually flowing across the three smoothing matrix so that we can aggregate them and breakouts and see if we can come up with some common themes. 00:36:53:13 - 00:37:13:01 Speaker 1 Interesting way to look at some of the needs. Another thing I want to do in my team is going to be meeting Thursday, as I mentioned, so we'll you all get one on one conversations and talk to people at these airborne experiments we want to do are very important and became clear in the solar breakout I was sitting in. 00:37:13:01 - 00:37:42:05 Speaker 1 There are two goals. There's one actually improving understanding of the science and then there's experiments to test and improve the technologies and themes and technology. So far, for example, in Solid Earth, I have really interesting targets, but we might want some really boring targets with, you know, vegetation limitation so we can really understand the limits of the technologies and how we put them together. 00:37:42:05 - 00:37:59:13 Speaker 1 So again, well, we'll add that to the book, but I would love some thoughts on targets and experiments that we might want to do when we here see not so great a string. So we work very slow. 00:38:00:13 - 00:38:47:16 Speaker 2 And just one thing that I've been looking at from a technology point of view is we're looking at global coverage in a lot of groupings and of got some numbers, but I just looked at we them and I just I want people to sort of have a realistic view what the satellite can cover from space so just bit the reality so so I just have to which a lot of people are familiar with as has six racks with roughly ten meter footprints and they get a lot of repeat tracks of both because they go back to the poles all the time. 00:38:48:02 - 00:39:25:17 Speaker 2 But the, the around the equator, the equator, you know, this is just a numbers that is 37,000 kilometers around. So that's just a number. So if you like upgrade from BICEP to which has six round tracks to a new, you know, special technology that has a hundred round tracks, just a pretty big step in the right direction. And so if you maintain ten meter footprints, that's a one that get one kilometer for every swath. 00:39:26:11 - 00:40:00:06 Speaker 2 And because you go up and down in one orbit, that's two, you get essentially you get two kilometers. So it's 16 orbits a day to get global coverage. It takes 3.2 years. So now and in places other than the equator, you'll get more repeats. But just like some of these daily, weekly, monthly like repeat tracks, now, not that you have to be in polar orbit and you might be able to fly more satellites. 00:40:00:06 - 00:40:18:10 Speaker 2 But just like if you're big, you only have one satellite. So we're getting a little bit concerned about things like that. But one satellite with a kilometer swath, 312 years for one map. So I think. 00:40:19:14 - 00:40:44:23 Speaker 1 Going to India then we this the similar is detailed by conversation once where there's we want a global based map. That's what the previous study said and I think most people but even then I disagree with that that we want to go to market based mapping. We want change. There's global coverage, there's global access we need to think about because of the cost constraints. 00:40:46:11 - 00:41:04:03 Speaker 1 Where do we want that access and how frequently do we need to access that? And that needs to be tied into the science requirements and the repeat and the processes we're trying to do observe. I know for a lot of processing, you want some seasonal measurements because we want you to understand the seasonal issues or take them out. 00:41:04:03 - 00:41:16:13 Speaker 1 And then when you're studying. So those are some of the trade you can see. 00:41:16:13 - 00:41:49:01 Speaker 2 So they give us a longer that's a big deal. But in India and Muslim communities, it's approaches being well in our systems and wonders, ambitious ones and the change in cadence. This doesn't example and the technologies and the sensitivities and. 00:41:52:14 - 00:42:15:07 Speaker 1 I think also related both the science and the technology. But we're going to hear more about data fusion tomorrow. That's going to be a very important piece on the science side. We need to know how to extrapolate. Linear is very precise but doesn't have dense coverage. Stereo imaging, a radar might have broad coverage, but there are less precise ways in stereo best measures. 00:42:16:19 - 00:42:40:13 Speaker 1 So we need to learn how to find these measurements together. You're going to have to make assumptions that are in the vegetation or the salt or something, human methane. And again, we're going to talk about that more tomorrow. But people should be thinking about that because that's going to be very important, especially if we're then brining back out processes that are, you know, that require these assumptions are dependent on these assumptions. 00:42:42:03 - 00:43:13:01 Speaker 1 Those are solid science. I was involved in biology many decades ago atmosphere and it was for a long time interpreted it to be in tectonics. We don't want to make those mistakes in our community. I really want to hear from the audience. I don't see anything that bill your comments. I'd like to hear what you think about what you heard so far today, since you you've probably been thinking about this for a lot more years and became sort of mainstream in the Mitchell system. 00:43:13:23 - 00:43:47:17 Speaker 2 Well, I will say that I'm not just been in that sense, but I've learned a lot. And when I think what I can, I say, let's still hear this debate within the coverage reviews of the site where we scale. And as I anticipate at some point and to bring all the pieces together and I know this is great perspective and very instructive. 00:43:48:03 - 00:43:50:06 Speaker 2 Thank you. But I think with this. 00:43:51:12 - 00:44:23:20 Speaker 1 All right. Understand. Yeah, we'll have to be trained to really do some fast analysis and prioritize permanence and access and resolution, things like that in the earthquake business, because it's an amplitude scale, a much bigger earthquake, you need less resolution if you want to go down, smaller earthquakes and high resolution. So my opinion on solar, Steve, I'm wondering if you have something because there's some fairly sophisticated landscape analysis, long term view. 00:44:23:20 - 00:44:33:18 Speaker 1 So you've been thinking about this for a long time. I pretty on spot here. 00:44:33:18 - 00:45:06:24 Speaker 2 I guess maybe just to reread some of the stuff we talked about in the song. I think and maybe a little more broadly, maybe a geographic region, think that's going to be the most demanding community to a piece in this process because the scale of the processes that work are often quite foreign and it's going to be a challenge from what we've learned to do this sort of global higher frequency measurement scale. 00:45:07:00 - 00:45:29:15 Speaker 2 That's really from design. I think that I think a lot of us have similar US perspective on things. And I made the point also that not just the event response, but there's a lot of understanding that can happen if we can get this sort of resolution, even from a single class in places where it's feasible to get airborne. 00:45:30:20 - 00:46:03:02 Speaker 2 So as I mentioned, some of us are trying to work on a very has responded with Dominican Republic in early hampered by the lack of topography and we can't an optimal solution won't work there because of the vegetation something really improves in our ability to get there without optical imagery. So keeping in mind that they didn't get a lot of advances from single paths, high resolution data as well in areas where we can't see the land that we need to see to assess sort of. 00:46:07:15 - 00:46:18:13 Speaker 1 Person signals in other persons. So you saying something good? Yeah. 00:46:18:13 - 00:46:58:08 Speaker 2 It's not about something, it's about meteorology. So this one, pretty soon access in remains won't be well. And we have a lot of deploying by storm. So in not only the space one, we also have a very small system, but in the U.S in the at the same time as overpasses potentially to compliment resources that maybe small cannot get capture very, very fast tides for example, or different wind conditions or wind directions. 00:46:58:21 - 00:47:45:15 Speaker 2 And I think complementing having airborne campaigns earlier, I said I know this should be focused on still we can have specific airborne campaigns that implement what can be missing. And I think for ideology, the opportunity is there because we're able to bring you revolutionary satellites in space and we can see where the gap is in terms of measuring through, I think having an experiment in hydrology using airflow and type measurements synchronized with the passage in the regions and trying to find those gaps and. 00:47:45:15 - 00:48:10:23 Speaker 1 Great, thank you. And then I'm curious if you have anything to add about applications since the last one. Yeah, well, I've got a kind of improvement more than one thing, which is I think there are a lot of what you can do with this TV. It's splintering areas and it would be really good to identify what those are. 00:48:10:23 - 00:48:11:15 Speaker 1 The areas. 00:48:11:15 - 00:48:12:00 Speaker 2 Where. 00:48:12:12 - 00:48:39:15 Speaker 1 Coastal areas you don't need think, oh gee, among all the vegetation alone you don't need solid earth. You only need them all together in order to understand what's going on that region. And even I would like to talk to you about, you know, for people who think about, you know, splitting instead of splitting it along these science and think about a more holistic. 00:48:40:09 - 00:48:40:14 Speaker 2 In. 00:48:40:21 - 00:48:41:20 Speaker 1 The what you can do. 00:48:41:20 - 00:48:42:03 Speaker 2 With. 00:48:42:10 - 00:48:42:15 Speaker 3 The. 00:48:42:15 - 00:48:55:19 Speaker 1 Entire is measurements. And I think that that naturally ties into allegations because those are really challenging measurements that we didn't make for people. 00:48:56:19 - 00:48:57:00 Speaker 4 Like. 00:49:00:06 - 00:49:21:06 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say to follow a linear how is it it's all that are so great you can tell one different thing. But the other discussion about erosion. So you think mixing these measurements what we need to understand the present day road and especially over fault scarps that are landslides or other things so that we can read backwards into time through the landscape to understand the processes. 00:49:21:06 - 00:49:37:14 Speaker 1 So we understand processing not just by repeat measurements, but also by understanding what we're what we can read about change in present day, by studying from the processes and not if you want to add anything that very distinctive. 00:49:37:17 - 00:50:19:21 Speaker 2 It's not just places where we move at first I just just nodding along because I think there are lots of places on the earth where we don't have sufficient resolution of existing topography to start to understand the history of landscape change from grains, landslides in Siberia, etc.. So without getting too fixated on the repeat interval, these measurements, these are global on doing global positioning pattern of these can really advance things because it's a big place and there's so much existing to be able to scale it like people. 00:50:23:13 - 00:50:51:04 Speaker 1 Even cryosphere questions that are on this or somebody else. You guys have I sent you that all kinds of nice altimetry measurements I guess what I always think there's something that's not as bad. And second, so what can STV add or what have you found? Don't have important measurements that STV can support? 00:50:51:04 - 00:51:02:08 Speaker 3 I don't want to be the only person talking here. Then we will get together. 00:51:02:08 - 00:51:17:18 Speaker 2 So measurements in 2034 would be an important part of that. So I sent to has done very well and it continues to be great stuff, but it's chances of one decade or 2%. 00:51:20:06 - 00:51:26:00 Speaker 1 Of American signaling. Sorry about this. 00:51:26:00 - 00:51:56:14 Speaker 2 There's also again, there's ice sheets that have very high temporal changes like rates that can propagate through. Looking at those for essentially we have like a long term view, but it'd be good to have some sort of that review. Yeah. And just to follow up on what Tyler said, you know, we have 11 meter wide streams across an feed. 00:51:57:04 - 00:52:19:11 Speaker 2 You know, in an ice sheet is a kind of scale being with processes from a centimeter or something hundreds of kilometers. And so there's this whole swath of processes that we're seeing, particularly income banks, cost of diamonds. So like we're in the basement, meets the ice, meets open ocean. That's where a lot of the magic happens in addition to like grounding zone. 00:52:19:11 - 00:52:30:23 Speaker 2 And that's where we have our worst data with ice. So bands are buying, right? In those places that really matter is a big priority maybe. 00:52:31:00 - 00:52:33:23 Speaker 3 David, do you want to see it out here. 00:52:34:14 - 00:52:42:14 Speaker 1 If you want to leave here or should go? Yes, there you are. 00:52:42:14 - 00:53:10:24 Speaker 2 I mean, I think people might be just knowing the English and speaking and when thing point and the tracks do not government English in its entirety, we can get estimates of. So if they won't give you a waiting list but you do indeed is from the strength and to deepen with an intensity and from year to year but beginning to look at catchments continues and this is game changing you know driving the highest uncertainties in global monitoring. 00:53:11:21 - 00:53:19:23 Speaker 3 So yeah and I'll just maybe additive I think I said to offer so much information but if you want to look at an. 00:53:19:23 - 00:53:22:00 Speaker 1 Individual event people go on snowfall. 00:53:22:00 - 00:53:27:02 Speaker 3 Event with the repeat cycle 91 days, you can't really look at an event. 00:53:28:11 - 00:53:33:15 Speaker 1 From that sort of satellite perspective and that would be a really huge accomplishment. Or did you. 00:53:35:05 - 00:53:38:17 Speaker 3 Bring Peter and the emcee down. 00:53:40:06 - 00:54:09:15 Speaker 2 In Thank you so I think one aspect that we ask it is related to the fact that we're going to send to you dating apps. But if you use radars, you don't have those data gaps and then you kind of miss the Zoom elevation point. And so it would be nice to have both really positive sides and together with that, have measurements, continued continuity. 00:54:10:00 - 00:54:48:12 Speaker 2 We would steal this from SDC because I think anyone who's been in reading since 2016 or right now, we do have a mission that keeps delivering data and long time series. And so maintaining that kind of data, it's, it's an asset for us and think the difficult job we had is that we have to there will be another two generations of an long commute for you based that including our missions and we kind of have to anticipate going beyond that next generation and kind of we can continue this. 00:54:48:12 - 00:55:10:02 Speaker 1 Thank you. That was really helpful. Robert, one say something. I want to summarize that. I really like the comments about corruption in the Robert here at some point the I think Martin's the glaciers that's really important as we do this work let's make sure we just are a little bit pure on the science meet the meetings and then get into the technology. 00:55:10:02 - 00:55:23:20 Speaker 1 We all tend to advance the work because we really like the technology, so it's going to take a step back. So we're really about something that's captured in your breakout work. 00:55:23:20 - 00:55:56:17 Speaker 2 I was just wondering in the private sphere sphere, but I knew of this then, so I was just wondering if you guys I've been I've been using this thing very much because it's wider public, something like online or is what would you be doing in the has it been performing well enough as an airborne system that something like space would be interesting? 00:55:56:17 - 00:56:32:22 Speaker 2 I can give you a partial sentence. So it wasn't from both of the arms use and it was a similar question. Small invasion and very, very similar type of measurements versus I remember four times in 34 different cubes. So it's open and use process thing. It begins with the same precedence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And complications and once the. 00:56:36:16 - 00:56:40:10 Speaker 1 We're going to you Robert. 00:56:40:10 - 00:57:01:06 Speaker 2 So I just want to pick up on Trump's comment about using light our radar in the beginning, particularly in the case of permafrost, which is another you know, it's been kicked around, but we think about it from a sphere. One of the big limitations certainly is vegetation cover, not just on tundra landscapes, but the boreal landscapes with forests. 00:57:01:17 - 00:57:12:20 Speaker 2 And so looking at complementarity between light hour and radar imaging or insar to get a better handle and frost that we mentioned really low we. 00:57:15:02 - 00:57:33:23 Speaker 1 Thank you so we really didn't to talk about permafrost degradation first before we get to the technology right and then when you want to follow it, then tomorrow we spend a lot of time on that. Robert, I was going to call you anyway. You you know, I am once again. 00:57:33:23 - 00:58:05:16 Speaker 2 You know, when best which burning for me we discussed in briefing that is how we should be a little more specific if we cared about the benefits or liabilities of each of an example, we say vertical structure bill on the right, but rarely do we find what that is. And even when we define it and say it's the very density, which is the density, we use this as a function of weight. 00:58:06:16 - 00:58:42:04 Speaker 2 We don't say what the consequences of measuring that are, and we don't even say what kinds of measurements, frequency flutters or the big one. And I think probably the simplest in literature, I think we could do a better job. Me on characterizing what we want to know about the construction and I'm wondering if that's that's people feel that way I think feels that there's that there's enormous merit to to putting the characteristics of the things that we're after. 00:58:42:20 - 00:58:57:17 Speaker 2 One of the things that really buys you is, is if something's too expensive, maybe you understand the dynamics. You think by the cheapest when the based number. 00:58:57:17 - 00:59:33:16 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And I want to bring that to Thursday so we can capture that in our discussion there. I guess I turn to a minute. Are there any processes, science processes that anyone wants to highlight that we make sure we get from our findings or that didn't get discussed in the break room for one reason or another? Does anybody feel that something got missed in your break up discussion when people online because it was a bit of a train in the observations that the items. 00:59:36:00 - 01:00:21:02 Speaker 2 So question and I'm when you were talking in the groups you know it was kind of what you need. Was there ever any discussion of what you can build with or if I gave you either we could reach 85% of our problems or is it 5 to 1, either when you really gains 10%? Or was there any any discussion really when you go I mean, we we tried to approach a little bit in solidarity, but I think it's to Robert was just saying in terms vegetation structure. 01:00:21:23 - 01:00:44:19 Speaker 2 So in in sort of in terms of trying to really know what is it you're there to get what you're trying to get out of the information. So we saw it for some of at least some stuff we're doing. It's really this kind of honesty approach of saying, well, what if somebody gives you that data? What do you try to extract from it? 01:00:45:07 - 01:01:39:09 Speaker 2 And then and then really examine in the case of we're using that to constrain some model, to influence our understanding of some of some process. And by having an author writer, you know, if we go fire, how much do we gain scientifically or if it has to get worse than you could trade offs and in addition to work on then how much do we really lose can be in quantifying that and that's I think something in general we need to try to set ourselves up in the beginning to be able to, to, you know, how the modeling or whatever analysis infrastructure in place such that we can we can do those we move trades are 01:01:39:09 - 01:02:29:01 Speaker 2 being examined for a mission. We can then put them into some to Cuba just to finance from experience. And I think one way to approach that is to have the communities in which basically the baseline, what they want to see when you get to the point where you can have some idea of what people are choosing as compared with work to achieve at least some of those baseline measurement parameters, that is a very strong question. 01:02:30:02 - 01:03:15:21 Speaker 2 And I think it would be helpful to to to do that examination began because I think some of you could choose because you could see the limitations of what community consumes and you would have a bigger picture of what you need to sacrifice and what the what user experience was actually being able to be. And that's put you in a better position to do some questions. 01:03:15:21 - 01:03:41:14 Speaker 2 And so walking around with this microphone, there's a sense in which the density that same to be reported could be used upside down to the way that we think that we're using it. When there are these thresholds, requirements, and you can look at that list and say, well, maybe if the threshold requirements unachievable, can the architecture, and that's just not a success. 01:03:42:10 - 01:04:18:19 Speaker 2 So then it's a list of the things that a given mission to the topics that are going to give admission could address one set of conditions. And so at some point you define an architecture and you figure out which which successes give us to decide whether those are successes, that the money for the mission and it might not include everything that is put into things that we can sort of and then also at that point, then the mission can go back to the people will be able to find the apartment and say, well, you know, we want to be in this thing. 01:04:19:16 - 01:05:15:02 Speaker 2 So you still given some of the requirements that we understand first terms. So if you get what you would be asked and I think you're going to get it. And so you have a question about since we've reached that to has a pretty good global data set people's point but three is to there's a pretty long history of an ice bridge I think that we can cover gap until you an example can be sent to and I'd be interested but I think you know as I said before folks get better coverage than the other party or if you're working. 01:05:15:02 - 01:05:54:13 Speaker 2 But I'd be interested to know like how ice bridge because you can be more targeted because you are in a kind of a predetermined orbit, what the optimizations were, how much repeat you could get. And I mean we have names are here but sort of what the cost structures were for repeats on ice bridge versus what they would have been, you know, could you if you could, would you train ice bridge like this that you can kind of really zero in on these and show where things are happening? 01:05:55:02 - 01:06:32:10 Speaker 2 Like, I think somewhere in TV there's going to be a crossover point where airplane missions are going to do better for repeats. And how do you optimize what's best to do from a predetermined orbit? No kidding. Do I going back there with the costs on, I'll just say really quickly that airplanes can't be happy at the poles. And so we're going to miss wintertime processes and we know that those are important. 01:06:32:10 - 01:07:14:01 Speaker 2 And we have amazing daytime images now, right. But we still do not have high resolution wintertime images to look at processes. And that's just, you know, a two dimensional structure of processes. And so I don't think there's really any way until we start to think about, like fleets of drones to do the things we need to do with an airplane flows. 01:07:14:01 - 01:07:40:03 Speaker 1 I think one of the things I like but input from is what can we do with a static high resolution to plug the image for and right. And why don't we need repeated measurements for? There are a lot of things you can see landslides. You can account for landslides all over the world or something. Well, you know, we vary density perhaps so I know in for feedback as well. 01:07:40:03 - 01:07:55:17 Speaker 1 I'm going to ask the group, start to look for feedback on that so that we can start to understand what what is just one really good measurement can you give us and what are repeated measurements going to add to that? So be thinking about that. But anybody who has any comments, I like to hear them here. 01:07:56:08 - 01:08:11:24 Speaker 2 I think another thing down there is how much of the surface would be needed to be covered by repeat measurements? I mean, you know, how many measurements do we need in Kansas, for example. 01:08:11:24 - 01:08:13:14 Speaker 1 Until it has a single volcano? 01:08:13:17 - 01:08:57:10 Speaker 2 But the problem is it had been since the beginning of the reach, you know, and sending more weight. And so I think that the problem, you know, I just speak to no problem. That's an example. I mean, it's probably more demanding ones in the sense that, sure, we want to run some, we want to go rate based beam and really need to be strong. 01:08:57:10 - 01:09:43:11 Speaker 2 Secondly, that base beam will eventually needs to be updated and some cadence. And then on top of that, there is an event response constrained not only from hazards, just from the scientific process. It there's an eruption happening sometimes can be the ideal beam to the moon. Something you want, right? Temporal sampling. And the question is how do you ideally you'd have a you really need, I think a satellite actually in its architecture because I can't imagine any kind of airborne system really truly being agile. 01:09:44:01 - 01:09:51:18 Speaker 2 You get some high altitude mean, you know, and can move back at the same time. 01:09:53:06 - 01:09:54:02 Speaker 1 By over two. 01:09:55:05 - 01:10:18:21 Speaker 2 Years. I mean, you know, one of those might be great, but you can imagine that the the time to get there is going to be insufficient. Then you're, you know, maybe if there's an ice storm and the eruption like now you say, oh, we're hearing about it today is, oh, yes, but in many cases you wouldn't have that. 01:10:19:13 - 01:10:26:24 Speaker 2 And so I think I think an airborne solution, maybe two, is. 01:10:27:24 - 01:10:37:09 Speaker 1 Still going to push back. And this is all very important. A lot of it's tomorrow's conversation. I know that Bill talked about the same thing. 01:10:37:09 - 01:11:20:14 Speaker 2 We have to talk to you and that is very great. Yeah, a very important baseline to learn from India, Africa. But we can see no visible complexity in the commonality of their complaint. But there's a lot of record written by the state and we can sense this is what it looks like so much of what they're going and we can read the landscape, the process, we can develop understanding evolution, endpoint. 01:11:20:16 - 01:12:03:24 Speaker 2 What we went in for in was one of our goals is to develop a theory for how the surface evolves again in makes the subsurface internal storage water you're sending points right you know we only have a global settlement this come from what's the instrument so service you have nothing really so I think that we're going to get there from spot measurements and in theory and so to predict what is beneath which will then have a profound impact in our ability to improve controls in the hands of the air and say the thing, you know this about what's beneath the surface that controls storage room. 01:12:04:12 - 01:12:40:07 Speaker 2 And so having that first order of hydrazine can be part of the propellant. In fact, many things, theoretically, it will help landscapes from very impactful things like water storage. What we've been building and what these going to be for the functions. So I'm excited to change. Detection is really emphasized down, but just getting that first level of controls we can convert evolution to begin with a and will be another thing revolution it began this time as do some. 01:12:44:03 - 01:13:07:04 Speaker 1 When he said I want to push everybody to think about if you just said topographic map or from, what can you do with that? You never got another. Benjamin Stein wrote a great paper ten years ago, a while ago where he did spectral analysis of the landscape around Boston Center very small and he was able to show stress directions when pulling out different frequencies. 01:13:07:18 - 01:13:31:17 Speaker 1 Well, look at those kinds of things, too, and then go on to the next step and look at repeat measurements process. But we don't want to lose this idea of a baseline map. What can we learn and what kind of resolution do we need for that? No one ever wants to be really real fairly soon. You want to look at it because it looks like something on Mars, but it also looks like something else on earth somewhere else. 01:13:31:17 - 01:13:55:05 Speaker 1 So we can understand some of these alluvial fans and you can extrapolate and understand all the parts of the earth, you know, if you can validate. And so that's important. I don't want to lose sight of that. In the science session today, there was lots of sure tired. Ben, I'm going to give you the last word. No, he's really tired. 01:13:55:05 - 01:14:20:11 Speaker 1 It's been from the East Coast, but I'm I'm I'm going to ask that all the leads, everybody that's talking tomorrow, we're running a session tomorrow we came back and I'm also going to ask these many JPL to hang back and welcome a different approach tomorrow with WebEx. So hopefully we get around this audio from anything else. 01:14:20:11 - 01:14:26:18 Speaker 2 We'll see you at 530 tomorrow morning to make up for the with us today. 01:14:26:18 - 01:14:30:04 Speaker 1 So thank you everybody for coming. You're on your own for dinner but if you want to.