Dale and I worked in the infrared spectrometer lab; we built spectrometers and went on these two-week long observing runs three times a year, so you see how much time we spent away from class-and that was it. We learned by doing, and by listening to him. When you're on the observatory floor all night-and of course nowadays they don't do that, astronomers sit at home with their computer and they don't go up there-in my day I sat out there in the freezing night all night, and helped Kuiper, or did my own observations, later in my career. So you learned by being around Kuiper, not by formally having coursework and things like that. I would say, people who worked with Tom Gehrels had a different relationship, but those of us who were with Kuiper, it was pretty much that. You were on your own. You survived, or you didn't.